Strange Ableton-only bug uncovered when using Premium Trance

[great-bear]

I'm using Dune 2.50 on Ableton Suite 9.7.1 under Windows 10

Everything is 64bit - which may be relevant.

On both Ardour and Ableton "9/24" voices are showing, when a single note is played (Aquatix EDT)

[Christophe]

i am with live 32 bit under win7, maybe there is a bug with the 64 bit version

[Marcin]

Ok. It doesn't look like DUNE 2's issue. Simply look at the midi led during program change. Ableton sends some midi data after the program change (I suppose it is key or midi mapping set up for the new project / empty midi track by default). In the result of that, DUNE 2 soloes voices or does some other things, depends on your actual configurations. Please check the items on the mappings in your Ableton.

[great-bear]

EDITED: I had stated

No Marcin, that's not it.

You can load the Dune patch FXPs into Dune using the Ableton VST user interface. There's no MIDI lamp flicker under such program change circumstances, but the problem does not go away.

This turns out only to be true if you're repeatedly loading the same patch.

[great-bear]

WORKAROUND FOUND!

Marcin,

I've discovered an interesting workaround that fixes the problem and will give you some insight into what is going on. Simply RE-SAVE the troublesome preset (using the Dune 2 GUI) from a host in which Dune 2 works properly. I have tested Komplete Kontrol, Ardour and Tracktion, and they all re-save patches which then correctly load into Ableton.

[EDIT: As shown later in this thread, this turned out to be an illusion and even a plain file copy might load differently under the right conditions]

So I would guess that Dune 2 may be assuming that newly-allocated parameter block memory is cleared or initialised in a certain way, and the patches (as supplied) don't supply all parameter values for that reason. When freshly re-saved however, all values are being probably written out to the FXP, and so they fully set-up the patch when loaded into Ableton. Just a wild guess though and I may be completely wrong. Please do post what it turns out to be.

[Teksonik]

I may be completely wrong.

That would be my guess.

[Marcin]

Can you send me a couple of "invalid" patches? I'll compare with those valid ones.

You can load the Dune patch FXPs into Dune using the Ableton VST user interface

I suppose it also flashes at there.

may be assuming that newly-allocated parameter block memory (...) When freshly re-saved however

Nope. The plugin doesn't do any assumptions on the program load, so it loads the program just fine. Some midi data is sending to the plugin right after program is changed, otherwise you would hear an invalid patches in any host.

[great-bear]

EDITED - I previously said:

As previously stated, no MIDI data is being sent when loading patches via the Ableton UI rather than the Dune 2 UI:

AbletonVstLoader.png

As initially described, the issue would indicate that some residual state information from the previously loaded patch is not being reset when the new patch is loaded in.

I will send over some patch files later today.

Rgds,
J.

It turns out that this is only the case if you are repeatedly loading the same patch.

[great-bear]

Attached, some original, unmodified factory files (that don't load properly in my Ableton system) plus "fixed" versions (re-saved in Dune 2, from within another, working host application) that subsequently load just fine in Ableton.

[Marcin]

As expected. Internally the .fxp data (except patch name) is equal for both versions of the fxp files, original patch and the "fixed" one.

[great-bear]

Marcin,

Appreciate that we've both spent enough time on this now. It has indeed proved true that even a straight copy of the patch loads differently as shown in this new video here:

https://youtu.be/BuQzVLsVaQs

At this point, I give up...

If I ever get to the bottom of what's going on, I'll post it here. In the mean time I'll just wrap Dune 2 in Komplete Kontrol to get some consistent behaviour.

Thanks again for your time.

Rgds, J.

[great-bear]

Aaaaargh!! - just when I said I was "giving up"

- I couldn't help but notice that the Dune 2 MIDI in lamp DOES NOT flash when flipping between identical copies of the same patch with the Dune UI...

Further testing reveals that if instead you use the Ableton UI to load the same patch more than once, that's the situation when the MIDI in lamp does not flash - but also, the patch does sound OK at that point. It looks like you're right - Ableton is zapping Dune with some weird MIDI control.

Marcin - apologies for contradicting you - this Ableton behaviour is odd and it's easy to get confused. Whatever Ableton is injecting via MIDI it is doing directly, as inserting a Max 4 Live MIDI monitor before Dune 2 picks up nothing.

I am now going to inject some MIDI messages of my own to see if I can replicate the sound of the affected patches. Reset All Controllers had no effect, so it's not that...

[great-bear]

Marcin,

Is there any difference (other than patch name) in the content of the attached two files?

- I have reason to believe that "Aquatix EDT 2" may be a successful snapshot of the patch after being "zapped" by the incoming MIDI message, and as such may give a clue as to what that inbound message may be (on the other hand, you may have an easier way of determining/logging what Ableton is sending inbound? )

Rgds,
J.

[Marcin]

Those two patches don't have differences in the parameters during load, but indeed they sound differently.

[great-bear]

Is it down to the default values for the ten missing parameters?
(and are these being initialised consistently?)

Code: Select all

======== RESTART: C:\Users\jmurray\Dropbox\Python\ReadDuneFxpFile.py ========
There are 768 parameters in file "fxp/Aquatix EDT 2.fxp" for a preset called "Aquatix EDT 2"
There are 758 parameters in file "fxp/Aquatix EDT.fxp" for a preset called "Aquatix EDT"