Orion 9 Wishlist 2014

[Teksonik]

You know, there was a time when Orion got more updates than anything else around

No there never was a time when Orion had more major updates than anything else around. The slow pace of development was one of the major nails in it's coffin. That and the fact that every time some potential user made a feature request he got called an idiot or a sheeple.

And that is the simple fact that Rich has always been far more interested in making Orion better

Well he failed miserably as by his own admission there are just not enough users to make it worth developing any further. If it was better more people would have bought it and the same dozen or so people wouldn't be arguing about it year after year. You're still living in denial. "Orion is not popular because no one has heard about it and no one has heard about it because it's not popular". Time after time you underestimate the power of word of mouth advertising. I'll say it one more time although I know it won't sink in.......Orion died because of what it doesn't do and not for any other reason. It simply couldn't keep up with the competition. You'll just have to live with that fact. You did your best to dumb it down for a decade and a half. Well you succeeded and we can see the result. Congratulations.

[Kriminal]

Orion doesnt have any competition. Name me one other current host that is pattern based and mixer centric?

[Kriminal]

You know, there was a time when Orion got more updates than anything else around

No there never was a time when Orion had more major updates than anything else around.

He didnt say major updates.

All this is pretty simple to figure out. Rich made Orion how HE wanted it. Very occasionally he gave in and added user requests. Very occasionally. Development actually stopped dead for a few years. Nothing at all.

In the end, slow development and poor support killed Orion. Rich and Marcin killed it off. Nobody else.

Judging by the way things are going on this forum, i can see Synapse as a company going the same way. You cant publically ignore customers like that.

[heks]

Orion doesnt have any competition. Name me one other current host that is pattern based and mixer centric?

I know its a bit of a stretch krim, but the way I have MuLab setup is close to Orion and the plus for me is I can see behind/under the desk so to speak.

[Kriminal]

Yeah, i use it here. Not the same, but its the easiest to learn, and its pretty good.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

You're still going about this? Ok, I'll chip in.

I think all of you are right in one way or another.

Bones said that people are hard to persuade once they stick to a brand/product, and I've seen/read that with my own eyes. Many years back, there was a forum dedicated to regional musicians, composers and producers, and a subject of Orion popped up. To translate what was said back then, the conversation, as short as it has been, literally went like this:

OP: Hey guys, what do you think about Orion?
1: Never heard of it
2: It's looks childish / toy-like
3: Get Cubase. It's made for humans.

I kid you not, that's what the answers to that question were. So, yes, people will most likely to stick with tried products/methods than give a try to something else, even if that might be better for them. And nothing can persuade more than a recommendation (like the 3rd answer), but since Orion didn't had a large userbase, recommendations like that basically never (or very rarely) happened.

And I still think that updates frequency played a role in Orion's fall into abyss. People usually get hyped when they're expecting, even more so if it's that anxious expectation ("Ooooohhh, can't wait to see what new stuff they put in"), so over 2 years between 2 major versions tend to cool people completely off. That multiplies if there are persistent bugs that they need to wait for weeks or months to get sorted out, and people just jump the ship onto the next thing that does get updated more frequently and brings all the cool stuff that majority wanted. Even if that made the software bloated, they could still choose what they wanted to use and in what way. Give them 30 similar EQs, they could still pick 1 or 2 they could stick with and be happy.
Ultimately, it is people who give away their money for it, and they can rightfully expect things to work in their favor. You don't give them features they want, or don't fix the bugs they have? Be damned sure you won't be seeing their money again.

So, as a final thought from me, what a successfully developed software needs, in no particular order:
1. Good looks
2. Familiarity / Ease of use
3. Frequency of updates
4. Multiple choices of features
5. Great support

I may be missing something, so feel free to add.

And I too think Orion had no competition in the pattern-based host category. It was truly unique.

[Teksonik]

He didnt say major updates.

There's a difference between an update and a bugfix.......

Orion doesnt have any competition. Name me one other current host that is pattern based and mixer centric?

If it doesn't have any competition why isn't it wildly popular ? You can get close to Orion's Workflow in FL Studio. I would say it has always been Orion's main competitor.

In the end, slow development and poor support killed Orion. Rich and Marcin killed it off. Nobody else.

I think BONES' constant attacks against change had a lot to do with Orion's lack of popularity but you're right about the slow development and poor support.

Judging by the way things are going on this forum, i can see Synapse as a company going the same way. You cant publically ignore customers like that.

This we can agree on. I don't think they even care anymore. I think real life responsibilities are too demanding. Yes they could come back and say "we're so busy with Dune updates etc that we don't have time to check the forums" but that would be bullsh*t. Too busy making products to support the products ?

[Teksonik]

but since Orion didn't had a large userbase, recommendations like that basically never (or very rarely) happened.

Once again you're stuck in a loop. Nobody uses Orion because nobody ever heard of it and nobody ever heard of it because no one uses it. That's a cop out. Like I said the reason Orion isn't more popular is because of what it doesn't do. Several DAWs have been released since Orion and they have gained in popularity. Why ? Functionality, because of what they can do. End of story.

Ultimately, it is people who give away their money for it, and they can rightfully expect things to work in their favor. You don't give them features they want, or don't fix the bugs they have? Be damned sure you won't be seeing their money again.

I agree with that 100%.

And I too think Orion had no competition in the pattern-based host category. It was truly unique.

Obviously unique doesn't necessarily equal good. Otherwise there would be more than the same ten people talking about Orion year after year.

Look I like Orion or I wouldn't have stuck around but it's just plain and simply obsolete and outdated.......

[HYPNAGOGIA]

but since Orion didn't had a large userbase, recommendations like that basically never (or very rarely) happened.

Once again you're stuck in a loop. Nobody uses Orion because nobody ever heard of it and nobody ever heard of it because no one uses it. That's a cop out. Like I said the reason Orion isn't more popular is because of what it doesn't do. Several DAWs have been released since Orion and they have gained in popularity. Why ? Functionality, because of what they can do. End of story.

And I agree with that, but... what do you mean "once again I'm stuck in a loop"?

Obviously unique doesn't necessarily equal good. Otherwise there would be more than the same ten people talking about Orion year after year.

Of course not. Different people have different needs. It may be unique in a good way for me, it might not be for someone else. Sadly, seems there's been more "someone else" that didn't find Orion unique in a good way.

[Kriminal]

The thing is, you cant force ppl to use Orion. For me, it was perfect. For 99.9% of ppl it isnt. I cant use reaper or cubase. They suck balls. Live wont even run here after scanning my vst folder....

I dont care who does or doesnt use Orion. Its a shame to see it die after investing so much time on it myself, but it still works here. No probs with any new stuff. Im trying other options incase it stops working before i do, but its a chore.

I still plug in my guitar, open Orion, load up a beat and a pad seq and jam away. Ive even recently scored a short film in Orion.

[Teksonik]

And I agree with that, but... what do you mean "once again I'm stuck in a loop"?

Not you personally but aimed at those who constantly blame Orion's demise on "no one has ever heard of it" instead of the real reason of slow development and the lack of features that people find appealing in other DAWS.........

Sadly, seems there's been more "someone else" that didn't find Orion unique in a good way.

Agreed and there are reasons for that....like refusing to add stretch even though every other DAW has it even the lowly Energy XT.......

[Teksonik]

The thing is, you cant force ppl to use Orion.

No but the whole idea is to make them want to use it. That goes for any company and any product. If you want people to buy your product over the competitor's product you have to give them a reason. Quite apparently Orion did not....

I still plug in my guitar, open Orion, load up a beat and a pad seq and jam away.

See this is a perfect example. For me Reaper simply blows Orion away for Audio recording of my guitar. Once I took the time to learn how to use it I could never leave Reaper for Orion when it comes to recording my guitar. The "Count In to Playback" feature alone is worth using Reaper. Audio recording is simply more advanced in Reaper but then that's it's main focus. For doing synth based stuff I don't like it at all. For that I've turned back to FL Studio and while it's workflow can not match Orion's speed what you gain in features more than makes up for the loss in time.

No doubt for some Orion still works. For me it doesn't since none of the Air Much Tech plugins will work and they are some of my favorites. So rather that stick with software that has been abandoned I've chosen to use the other tools at my disposal.

[Kriminal]

I think even if Rich had spent thousands on ads, it may not have made much diff. It seems most ppl just didnt feel Orion was for them.

We seem to be arguing over who is at fault for its lack of popularity.
Users have a choice...

Clearly many users left for various reasons we have covered.

So, time to get on with it. Onwards and upwards eh....

[bones]

No there never was a time when Orion had more major updates than anything else around.

Of course there was. I can't remember which version but I think it was 4.0 or 5.0 that Orion reached before Fruityloops, despite being at v1.0 a couple of years after Fruity.

Well he failed miserably as by his own admission there are just not enough users to make it worth developing any further.

What does that have to do with the quality of the application? The most popular products are NEVER the best products. e.g. Toyota Corolla, Big Mac. The most popular products are, by and large, those with the best marketing and Orion has had little or no marketing in it's life.

If it was better more people would have bought it

You are assuming that everyone is knowledgeable enough to choose the best products but a quick look through KVR, or even here, will show that is not even remotely close to reality. People buy what's popular, assuming that it must be good, which again comes down to marketing. Once they have invested themselves into it, confirmation bias kicks in.

You're still living in denial. "Orion is not popular because no one has heard about it and no one has heard about it because it's not popular".

Yes, it's about marketing.

Time after time you underestimate the power of word of mouth advertising.

No, I doubt it's validity. You need to read up on cognitive bias, particularly confirmation bias, to get some understanding of this. Nobody I talk to has ever heard of Orion. No-one at music shops, none of the bands/artists we perform with, nobody.

Orion died because of what it doesn't do and not for any other reason.

What doesn't it do? We've made four albums with it and never found any insurmountable issues. It certainly has fewer limitations than anything else we've used, which include Cubase and Cakewalk. It works just like a studio, which allows everyone to fully leverage 50 or 60 years worth of experience to get the best results. That's not something you can say about any other application out there.

[Suonoecomputer]

My opinion counts for little, however, I started in 2005 to use Orion and from that continuous time now to use it. I believe that the Orion problem was in his sale price that was too high when compared to other software with more features .. So Orion was burned .. But now you can not continue to discuss Orion .. Rich must write a definitive statement and decide once and for all. Or you decide for a new program or you continue to make updates to Orion. But you have to write it in an official statement and post it on this site, because otherwise you continue to argue endlessly Orion without knowing if true or not yet developed. You have to take a final decision !! Communicated if you are working on a new program or not, but you have to write it otherwise people will continue to ask questions about Orion !! Started to look forward, ask for help from other developers of music software, chiedte help to users who work on open source software, but look ahead, take a breath back to the Synapse website !! Create videos on YouTube where you seek partnerships with developers and programmers .. Otherwise if you just want to continue developing Synapse Dune and tell other plugin, but say it and write it, do not give illusions to users who still do not resign on the future of Orion ... Thanks . Greetings.