Global Patterns

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Re: Global Patterns

Postby mprojekt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:30 am

Another option would be a clone function in piano roll, through the edit mode.

With default clone to all instruments and copy all parimeters, but option to choose though which instrument not to clone too as well as not to clone parimeters too, via a tick box dropdown.

So Wasp#1 A1 to H8 in the piano roll would clone exactly to say Wasp#2 Toxic 2's etc etc A1 to H8 piano rolls.

To clone all three clicks edit/clone/ok a few more if you want to omit.

This would do what i think Bones wants in 3 clicks, but is not automatic and with those options included would be a little bit more flexible.

Now await comments mmmm :D :D :D
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby bones » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:41 am

That wouldn't work very well because every time you changed a pattern or created another, you'd have to do it all over again. You can copy/paste all the patterns in one generator to another already, I just get sick of doing it all the freakin' time.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby mprojekt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:53 am

bones wrote:That wouldn't work very well because every time you changed a pattern or created another, you'd have to do it all over again. You can copy/paste all the patterns in one generator to another already, I just get sick of doing it all the freakin' time.



Not on 8.5 it doesnt on 7 yes you had a tick box saying copy all etc maybe i got some bug but tried copy paste copy ctrl v ctrl c paste ctrl c ctrl v nana zilch only one at a time pain in the ass.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Lance » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:01 am

@Bones

"Just press B, then 6 on your keyboard"?

Well, that's superior to a single mouse-drag up or down in your world? :roll:

Simple mouse commands are the fastest way to arrange, I want to keep that way!


You're lying to noob public users telling we do not like your genius idea only because we don't understand it.

Tell me which patterns I would get at an instrument for arranging in the Playlist with your global pool? Only those which I want to have specificly for that instrument as right now?

The generators are having their pattern bank at the Playlist too! Your globall pool at every generator idea will affect and destroy the easy and fast Playlist usage too!

I want to keep instrument specific pattern banks! I don't want a big mess of patterns of every generator! I don't like your 4 button pattern selector! I don't need your global pool! I don't want your global pool hurting, slowing and compromizing the current workflow and the way Orion handles patterns for creating, changing, selecting and arranging!

I DO NOT LIKE YOUR IDEA! SAVVY?

It's not about not understanding it!
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Mark » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:08 am

Richard wrote:
Kriminal wrote:i cant see the point in having both, it really needs to be one or the other, to avoid even more confusion :shock:


I think so too, with the exception of some sort of global pattern-browser (perhaps containing presets, similar to the v7 Styles, but global so they can be applied to any generator).


I think a global list of styles is closest to what I'm thinking of, but with a mechanism to change associated automation to parameters in different generators/VSTis.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Mark » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:12 am

Teksonik wrote:
Mark wrote:Where on earth does it say the current pattern-based approach will be ditched? I think part of the problem here (and the beta forum) is that each person has got a different interpretation of a simple concept. Again, I myself see the global patterns as a level to fit on to/alongside the current system


Richard wrote:Both local and global patterns would get messy. Just imagine being able to drag *some* patterns to other tracks but not others... a nightmare for new users.


Richard wrote:
Kriminal wrote:i cant see the point in having both, it really needs to be one or the other, to avoid even more confusion :shock:


I think so too, with the exception of some sort of global pattern-browser (perhaps containing presets, similar to the v7 Styles, but global so they can be applied to any generator).


I've made my case against Global Patterns...nothing much else to say other than think it over I mean really think it over before implementing any system that breaks Orion's Pattern Per Generator workflow which in my opinion is it's backbone and strongest point........


How I see it implemented in my head, nothing about Orion would be changed apart from having a project dependent database of patterns that could be used in the current pattern banks. That database could be saved as a template of course.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Christophe » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:20 am

mprojekt wrote:Not on 8.5 it doesnt on 7 yes you had a tick box saying copy all etc maybe i got some bug but tried copy paste copy ctrl v ctrl c paste ctrl c ctrl v nana zilch only one at a time pain in the ass.

CTRL-SHIFT-C to copy all pattern !
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby mprojekt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:28 am

ccarrieres wrote:
mprojekt wrote:Not on 8.5 it doesnt on 7 yes you had a tick box saying copy all etc maybe i got some bug but tried copy paste copy ctrl v ctrl c paste ctrl c ctrl v nana zilch only one at a time pain in the ass.

CTRL-SHIFT-C to copy all pattern !


ta prefer to use mouse hate multi function keys
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Christophe » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:29 am

Mark wrote:I think a global list of styles is closest to what I'm thinking of, but with a mechanism to change associated automation to parameters in different generators/VSTis.

so, template is enough, imho, we don't need nothing, and it saves some dev time
insert your template with your database pattern, and in the new synth select receive midi from
it can even put patterns automatically in the playlist !
it's amazing !
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Christophe » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:32 am

mprojekt wrote:
ccarrieres wrote:
mprojekt wrote:Not on 8.5 it doesnt on 7 yes you had a tick box saying copy all etc maybe i got some bug but tried copy paste copy ctrl v ctrl c paste ctrl c ctrl v nana zilch only one at a time pain in the ass.

CTRL-SHIFT-C to copy all pattern !


ta prefer to use mouse hate multi function keys

you never copied with the mouse !
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby mprojekt » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:42 am

you never copied with the mouse ![/quote]

mmm click edit click copy option box appeared offering copy pattern or all paterns well in v7 anyway then go into generator you want to copy to then click edit click paste.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby bones » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:44 am

Christophe, are you drunk? You're not making much sense. Of course he copied with the mouse, by using it to bring up the copy dialogue.

Just so you all know, Lance has posted exactly the same response on a thread in the beta forum that isn't even about this idea. Some of his ranting is about other discussions on the beta forum, so if some of it seems out of the blue, that's why. I think he is starting to lose his mind, but I don't want his ill-informed ramblings to go un-countered, so here we go.
Lance wrote:"Just press B, then 6 on your keyboard"?
Well, that's superior to a single mouse-drag up or down in your world? :roll:

Where did I say that? There are 4 ways to change patterns and I use all of them. But if you need to go from A1 to B7, then pressing "B", then "7" is probably the quickest way to get there.
Simple mouse commands are the fastest way to arrange, I want to keep that way!

How stupid are you? Read what I said, you can use every one of the methods you use now and they will work just as effectively. There is absolutely no difference between changing from pattern A1 to A2 as there is 000 to 001. Its the same thing so why would you not do it the same way? I can't even understand why you would think stuff like this. It's pure craziness.
You're lying to noob public users telling we do not like your genius idea only because we don't understand it.

But you clearly don't understand it or you wouldn't be coming out with stupid bullshit like this. All you are doing is confusing people by saying things that don't make sense.
Tell me which patterns I would get at an instrument for arranging in the Playlist with your global pool? Only those which I want to have specificly for that instrument as right now?

What would be the point of that? The whole idea is that you'd be able to use patterns from any instrument, so obviously they will all be available to use in the Playlist. That's the whole point of doing the thing in the first place.
The generators are having their pattern bank at the Playlist too! Your globall pool at every generator idea will affect and destroy the easy and fast Playlist usage too!

Why will it? Generators now have 64 patterns available but that doesn't get in the way, does it? So why would 1000 or 10,000 patterns? If you just want to use 3 or 4 patterns, then you just use those, exactly as you'd use the 3 or 4 patterns out of 64 possible patterns now.
I want to keep instrument specific pattern banks! I don't like your 4 button pattern selector!

As strange as it may seem, I don't give a toss what you do or do not like. I don't necessarily "like" it either, but to me it is obvious that it would make Orion better. So far most users here seem to agree.
I don't want your global pool hurting, slowing and compromizing the current workflow and the way Orion handles patterns for creating, changing, selecting and arranging!

Then you're in luck, because it won't do any of that.
I DO NOT LIKE YOUR IDEA! SAVVY?

I'm not interested in what you do or do not like, your life means less than nothing to me. I'm interested in making Orion better and this change would address a lot of issues that we've all just got used to over the years.
It's not about not understanding it!

With you, that is exactly what its about. Its like I've told you I just got a new pet cat but before I got the chance to say "cat", you've heard "pet" and all you can think about is how much you hate dogs. But I'm not talking about dogs so anything you have to say is irrelevant.
My Duplicate FR was about progressing with layers and songs, adding instruments in a fast way to work further.

No, it was about not knowing how to use Orion, pure and simple, because what you were asking for is already easy to do with existing features. You were just to pig-headed to even try to do it the way I showed you.
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Christophe » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:12 pm

bones wrote:Christophe, are you drunk? You're not making much sense. Of course he copied with the mouse, by using it to bring up the copy dialogue.

no, but i am very ungry :lol:
he is using the menu entry ?
i have never used the menu to copy/paste in all my life :lol: but used to change the copy option in v7 to copy parameter or automation
imho, the dev time should be devoted to enhance the automation management (ie copy/paste automation)
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Teksonik » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:16 pm

bones wrote:EVERYTHING TEKSONIK HAS SAID IS WRONG, LIKE LANCE, HE HAS MADE NO EFFORT TO UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT AND, THEREFORE, HIS COMMENTS ARE FACTUALLY INCORRECT. PLEASE IGNORE HIS REMARKS.


I've made every effort to understand the concept and it just doesn't make sense. You have not made any logical case for the inclusion of your poorly thought out idea so now you are resorting to shouting. I'm sure when I read further into the thread you'll be resorting to name calling and insults which you always fall back on when your argument falls apart......

Just as I thought "baggage" means people who've actually taken the time to think through how global patterns will be a mess and therefore rightfully disagree with your very bad idea........
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Re: Global Patterns

Postby Teksonik » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:55 pm

bones wrote: When you insert a new generator, a virtual folder is created for it's patterns.


Are you sure all these pie in the sky ideas you have are even possible to code? How much time will have to be spent coding your horrible idea? And in the end it all brings absolutely nothing new to Orion.....

bones wrote: I don't think I ever insert a second instrument and then create a pattern for it,

bones wrote:During the song writing process, I'd say between 20 and 50 times for each song, trying to find the best instrument for each part.

And there you go forcing your primitive and simplistic workflow on everyone else. You see I already know what sounds an instrument can make when I load it up. I don't have to go searching over and over so a new synth stumbling about in the dark looking for a particular sound.
Besides you've already said on numerous occasions you only use Wasp and a few of your "Killer" synths so if you don't know what sounds they can make already then really there's no hope for you.....So right there your whole argument falls apart as it's apparent your are willing to lie just to shove this awful idea down people's throats.....

bones wrote: If the pattern has the name of the instrument built into it, it won't be an issue at all. e.g. Dune-017 or Wasp #1-045.

And if you use pattern Dune-017 in Albino it then becomes Albino-17? Or it stays Dune-017 and you've got a hodge podge of different names in each playlist lane? Then if you want to rename patterns Verse Chorus etc you lose all track of which pattern is which and if you go to edit one pattern it will change all the patterns in every instrument that uses that pattern whether you want it to or not. A complete and total Mess.......

bones wrote:Why not? It might take you in an unexpected direction and lead to something wonderful.

Now you're just grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to justify an idea which you clearly have not thought out and clearly have no understanding what this change would mean....

bones wrote:You might want to use it with a drumkit in the Sampler rather than a piano, or try it with Tomcat or Pro9. I've even done stuff where their is a voice sample triggered with every snare (an "ooomph" sound). It is quite a valid thing to want to do.
Could be handy to layer it to give the synth part a percussive attack via Tomcat or with DrumRack in Multi Mode (like using the noise osc in Wasp). Again, something you might want to experiment with that is a bit out of left field. You wouldn't think to do it now but it might turn out to be a great effect if it was just a bit easier to broaden your experimental horizons


Incredibly weak arguments but all of this can already be done in Orion with Copy/Paste and Clone To......if you for some silly reason wanted to use a Hi Hat patterns in a Piano track you could already do this now. Global Patterns bring nothing new and bring only an organizational mess.....

bones wrote:Your question assumes you already know the answers to these questions. It is in the pursuit of those answers (to the second and third questions) that global patterns work well. i.e. If it can answer these 2 questions whilst only raising one new one, then we are making progress.

I already know the answer and the answer is Global Patterns are a horrible idea and no they would not be progress....

bones wrote:The Playlist will answer that.


How? You've made no convincing argument that will be the case......

bones wrote:A better question would be "which patterns can Instrument number 8 use?" Right now that answer is only about 1/8th of all the patterns in the song. How much better answer is "any pattern you like"?


We can already use any pattern in any instrument now. So the answer is already "any pattern you'd like". You'd know this if you actually used Orion but anyone who didn't even know Clone To existed before coming up with the silly idea really doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.......

bones wrote:Again, issues to be addressed, not insurmountable problems.

You've left too many "issues to be addressed" and not given any answer to questions....you're assuming everything will just work out the way you want without considering the effort it will take or the impact it will have on others

bones wrote:Again, you are making assumptions - that amongst your vast arsenal of sonic weapons, Albino is the only instrument that is right for that part. i.e. You are locking yourself in and making it less likely to find the absolute best synth for the job.

Again I know before I load an instrument what sounds it can make. If I decide that I'd rather use Dune than Albino I simply Clone To Dune and delete Albino in less than ten seconds....this function already exists..Global Patterns will bring nothing new....

Ok I've run out of time for now.it's off to work for me. We'll take this up later........
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