DUNE 2 demo ASIO spikes

[JohnDowe123]

PS: This might be a reason why nobody noticed this during beta testing. I guess people test beat versions by playing it solo, not embedded in a huge project.

[Teksonik]

So I guess you never created a really big project in your other DAWs with lots of plugins which brings your machine close to its limit. THEN ASIO spikes get important, because then they get audible as dropouts. If you load just one instance of Dune2 and nothing else, you won't see problems.

Guess again........I have plugins that are far more CPU demanding than DUNE 2 and can run several instances of multiple plugins especially on the i7 studio computer. There is a reason why other DAWS don't care about "ASIO Load". With the same soundcard or external device the number of plugins a system can run before audio degradation is determined by the power of that system's CPU. I had the AP 24/96 installed in an older DAW that only had a Pentium 2.53 and it could only run a fraction of plugins that the Q6600 system it's currently installed in can.......same soundcard same ASIO drivers........different CPU's.

PS: This might be a reason why nobody noticed this during beta testing. I guess people test beat versions by playing it solo, not embedded in a huge project.

So by that reasoning you can't be sure that DUNE 2 is at fault......it's something in your huge project. You are saying that a single instance of D2 causes "ASIO Spikes" ? I ran several instances during testing and found no system issues, audio dropouts or degradation.....but then once again I don't use Cubase.

At any rate no one has answered my question at KVR so at this point you're the only one with this issue. If someone who also uses Cubase reports the same issue then Rich and Marcin can take it from there.........Marcin has responded to this thread so he is aware of the issue.

[Mark]

PS: This might be a reason why nobody noticed this during beta testing. I guess people test beat versions by playing it solo, not embedded in a huge project.

I used the beta version in several projects that I was working on. In fact, I find it easier and better to beta test in the context of a project. In one project I had 10 instances of DUNE 2 plus Kontakt 5 and not a hint of a problem.

[JohnDowe123]

There is a reason why other DAWs don't care about "ASIO Load".

Yes - the reason is thoses DAWs don't have the technology to measure ASIO load. That is not trivial and it consumes some of the ASIO power itself. However it shows you where you are, how much more power is left. Every system has a certain ASIO perormance which comes to an end at some point. Cubase gives you a scale so you can see when this point is reached. That's a plus in my view.

With the same soundcard or external device the number of plugins a system can run before audio degradation is determined by the power of that system's CPU.

Yes - ASIO performance is determined by your whole system. Mainboard, RAM, CPU, disk, Soundcard, driver. So it's not solely a CPU thing.

PS: This might be a reason why nobody noticed this during beta testing. I guess people test beat versions by playing it solo, not embedded in a huge project.

So by that reasoning you can't be sure that DUNE 2 is at fault......it's something in your huge project.

True. I was only saying that you won't notice the spikes as dropouts until your system is already pretty much at its edge.

[Teksonik]

Yes - the reason is thoses DAWs don't have the technology to measure ASIO load.

No, they don't have a need to measure "ASIO Load".............

At any rate let's see what Rich says about the issue and why Orion doesn't have an "ASIO Load' meter...........

From S.O.S
"According to Steinberg, the Cubase VST Performance ASIO meter actually displays how hard the audio card driver is working and how much capacity is left before you will experience pops and crackles. In practice, whatever is being measured, comparing the Cubase ASIO meter reading with that of the Windows Task Manager on a multi-core PC shows that Cubase indicates how close any one of the cores is getting to 100 percent occupied".

What other VSTi's do you own ? Do they exibit the same "ASIO Spikes" as DUNE 2 under the same conditions ?

[JohnDowe123]

Yes - the reason is thoses DAWs don't have the technology to measure ASIO load.

No, they don't have a need to measure "ASIO Load".............

At any rate let's see what Rich says about the issue and why Orion doesn't have an "ASIO Load' meter...........

From S.O.S
"According to Steinberg, the Cubase VST Performance ASIO meter actually displays how hard the audio card driver is working and how much capacity is left before you will experience pops and crackles. In practice, whatever is being measured, comparing the Cubase ASIO meter reading with that of the Windows Task Manager on a multi-core PC shows that Cubase indicates how close any one of the cores is getting to 100 percent occupied".

What other VSTi's do you own ? Do they exibit the same "ASIO Spikes" as DUNE 2 under the same conditions ?

That S.O.S. article is not applicable for spikes. The CPU core thing is a rule of thumb, nothing exact. You don't see the ASIO spikes in the CPU meter of Windows. Your "I don't care about ASIO load" doesn't help much either. Anyway. It's really pointless to discuss whether other DAWs simply don't have an ASIO meter, or don't need it as you say. I really don't understand why you reject the term ASIO load so heavily as if it where a crazy concept not making any sense. Anyway, lets just leave this discussion away.

I have Alchemy, Massive, Retrologue, PadShop, SynthMaster, Element, Firebrid, Zebralette. None of them shows this kind of ASIO spikes.

[Kriminal]

PS: This might be a reason why nobody noticed this during beta testing. I guess people test beat versions by playing it solo, not embedded in a huge project.

Actually, thats one of the first things i do, but i dont use Cubarse, and havent had any probs like yours here, so cant help.

[JohnDowe123]

Actually, thats one of the first things i do, but i dont use Cubarse, and havent had any probs like yours here, so cant help.

It's always a good thing for a discussion to depreciate other users DAWs by calling them names. That keeps everybody calm and focussed, you know?

[Teksonik]

I really don't understand why you reject the term ASIO load so heavily as if it where a crazy concept not making any sense.

Not crazy just not important. Ask yourself why thousands and thousands of other DAW users can live happily and be quite productive without knowing what their "ASIO Load" is..........

But anyway you're right it's pointless to discuss any further. If there is a bug in DUNE 2 when operating in Cubase then I'm just as interested in finding a fix as you are but I can't test since I don't own Cubase..........

Still no response from anyone at KVR if they are experiencing the same issue....or even if anyone uses the Cubase/Dune 2 combination.

Let's wait until Rich or Marcin comment and take it from there..........

[piel]

ASIO load isn't just not important it is non-existent. You can't overload the ASIO driver. The dropouts/crackling are caused by buffer underruns, which means that the buffer you have at 512 samples runs dry for short periods of time because your system does not have the resources momentarily to put data into the buffer. At 96kHz it is a LOT actually.
The devs of Cubase made up an interesting "ASIO meter" but no one really knows what does it measure except for the devs themselves. Surely not "ASIO load" because there is no such thing. Rather some clever way of checking your resources you have left before you should get audio crackles.
Just because you can't see spikes in the task manager it doesn't mean they are not there, but i wouldn't think CPU is the issue at 30% general load, but i have to mention it is enough to peak one core. I am not an expert here, but vst synths usually do not eat up the banwidth of the SATA bus, and you have CPU left, what does that tell you?
Your problem can be caused by CPU throttling (you say the system is close to its limits) cool and quiet or WTF is it called by the AMD peeps.
You also said that the project is quite large, but you aren't very specific at all. How many audio chanels, how many VSTs, VSTis and which ones are working at the same time you experience your problems. So others can test a similar project in their own hosts.
Your own test points to the fact that the problem is Cubase itself (or its performance), you should test in another hosts yourself like Live (bad performer) Orion . The same project on some friends Cubase machine.
Cheers
p.

[JohnDowe123]

The devs of Cubase made up an interesting "ASIO meter" [...] some clever way of checking your resources you have left before you should get audio crackles.

You just defined the concept of ASIO load metering

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Ok, so I think we've established that Cubase's ASIO Load = Everyone Else's Buffer Underruns, and that it's system specific (various systems performing differently). By all logic, a simple solution seems to be either upping the buffer or lowering the sample rate - whichever is acceptable. I'd think by now people would know how their systems perform and how many instruments and effects become too much.

[JohnDowe123]

Ok lets try a little test.

Open a Dune2 tack, select "Blue Pigment KS", set 8 fold Unison and 16 notes polyphony. Now program a simple 8th or 16th note pattern that repeats endlessly. Used voices will stick at 128 quickly because of the rather long release.

What my system does now: it plays the sequence allright, but sometimes crackles. These crackles are sometimes just one or a few per minute, sometimes it crackles pretty badly. If your system is much more powerful, you might have to raise your base ASIO load by adding in some multiband compressors or other demanding plugs. The thing is, the system is not totally overloaded, the dropouts are just sporadic.

[Teksonik]

What results would you expect ? If you push any modern softsynth near it's limit it's going to choke your system. Look at what that patch is doing given the settings you've made and you shouldn't be surprised that there is some overload. 8 Layers, Unison at 38%, each layer with 3 Osc stacked , 7 of which have their detune set to 47% plus all three Osc per layer active. There is reverb, 2delays, Comp, EQ, release set to 73% and you are running that at 96k ? Fact is I'm impressed your system can handle that at all let alone with only sporadic drop outs.

Now try that same experiment but reduce the release on all 8 layers to zero. Even my Q6600 internet machine can handle that.........at 256 samples latency.

DUNE 2 is one of the most CPU efficient plugins I own and that includes just about everything from Alchemy to Z3TA+2. But it's certainly possible to push it's CPU demand high by maxing out it's settings.

[JohnDowe123]

OK I tested again: at Unison 8 the dropouts are actually more or less a constant crackle. (Sometimes it behaves better sometimes not, not sure why this is so.)

At Unison 4 -5, that range, its the sporadic thing. And THAT is not ok. If the synth plays the same notes fine for 20-30 seconds an then produces a single dropout without any reason, something is wrong. Either in the DAW or in the synth or in the system. System I guess no because then it wouldn't only affect Dune. Cubase maybe, or Dune.