Dune 3 Attack behaviour

[rivertropic]

Hello, i am trying to understand if there is a way to shape the envelope with DUNE3, as i see in the manual, the attack shape is hardwired concave down, so the longest attack possible will anyway have that kind of shape. In a practical manner, it's difficult to me to do some very long ambient pads, as the longest attack will trigger the next audible note too soon.

I found a workaround using an MSEG on the level of the amp envelope, but this technique uses an MSEG for this task and it would be much more precise and controlable to do that directly on the EG (like Aparillo for example who has a dedicated slope, or audjoo helix where you can litterally shape any EG you like - Mpowersynth comes in mind too as you can control every envelope parameter and put a delay just before the attack, all these are features i use to do that kind of sound, without using any sort of automation.

Considering the amount of control that Dune gives, i found strange that the envelope has so few control, and i feel that i missed a feature or some sort of technique to achieve that without having to use an envelope, maybe using the modulation matrix in some way i don't know.

Thank you for reading and sorry for the nerdy question, but this is the only feature that makes me uncomfortable with the synth and i would like to understand this question more deeply.

river

----------------------

[Mark]

I think the trick (OTTOMH) is to use Amp Env as a mod matrix source and Amp Atk as a source and apply a negative amount to bend the attack downards. This can also be applied to decay and release separately. Positive amounts change the profile in the opposite direction.

[rivertropic]

I am trying now but you consider both Amp Env and Amp Atk as sources, so the only way to do what you say is to send the amp envelope as a modulation source to the amp attack, but this does nothing as a part of the envelope is sent to its whole? sorry for the confusion but i can't make this happen in that way.

is that what you mean like in the picture?

[Mark]

Sorry I meant destination

OTTOMH = off the top of my head!

[rivertropic]

it doesn't works like that for me (as in the picture), i found that a Constant as a source and amp attack as destination can modulate the attack the same way as in the amp envelope, but no way to bend the attack downwards.

[Teksonik]

MSEG to Amp Attack ?

D3 041121.png

Also I'm not sure the picture in the manual is really representative of the actual curve. It simply says:

The ATTACK parameter specifies the duration it takes for the amplitude envelope to go from
zero to its maximum level.

as i see in the manual, the attack shape is hardwired concave down,

I'm no Euclid but isn't the image in the manual a Convex Curve ? But again I'm not sure the image is a true representation of the actual envelope shape or just for illustration.

Curves.png

[rivertropic]

I'm no Euclid either but i think concave down is the same as convex up, and vice-versa.

Yes using an MSEG is a solution, on the Amp Level or The Amp attack directly, but i was searching for a solution who doesn't involve modulators.

Thank you for the answer

[Mark]

I am trying now but you consider both Amp Env and Amp Atk as sources, so the only way to do what you say is to send the amp envelope as a modulation source to the amp attack, but this does nothing as a part of the envelope is sent to its whole? sorry for the confusion but i can't make this happen in that way.

is that what you mean like in the picture?

You might need to increase the Amp Atk to hear the effect. Try setting Atk to +25 on the UI and change the mod matrix setting from -25 through 0 to +25.

You should also be able to see the effect on a spectrogram visualiser.

[Mark]

I'm no Euclid either but i think concave down is the same as convex up, and vice-versa.

Yes using an MSEG is a solution, on the Amp Level or The Amp attack directly, but i was searching for a solution who doesn't involve modulators.

Thank you for the answer

I'm also no Euclid, but the correct terms for envelope slope shapes are exponential, linear or logarithmic

LogLinExp.jpg

[Kriminal]

looks more like a rugby curve to me

[rivertropic]

Ahah yes thanks for the tip

Any modulation between Amp Env and Amp attack will not go beyond the maximum attack you can set on the UI, i have tried everything and the Amp Env modulating the Amp Attack stays always in the range of the original envelope.

[Teksonik]

Try this. It uses MSEG 1 to Amp Level. You can adjust the time by moving the first point back and adjust the curve after the point.

Other than that the envelopes are what they are. You'll just have to live with that for now as I'm not sure adjustable curves are on the to-do list since no one else has complained about not enough Attack time in the years since Dune was released.

But you can add it to the list of feature requests and see what happens.

[Kriminal]

the msegs are there to do exactly that, make any shape envelopes you need

[Teksonik]

Here's a little better example. You can have up to 20 seconds attack time in this example and again the curves can be adjusted.

[rivertropic]

Thank you Tek, i like the modulation on the pulsewidth on the very long preset, sometimes the simplest sounds are the best.

yes i will stick to using MSEG for that kind of operation, i was asking about that topic because DUNE being a very flexible synth, that feature reminds me of Sylenth1 and NordLead4 who are almost the only modern VA synths i know who doesn't have that feature directly integrated into the EG, and Dune being much more flexible that these two i was expecting maybe a more complex way to deal with Envelopes.

Trying many techniques and workarounds lately with DUNE3, i can say it is a really impressive synthesizer, a legitimate upgrade from Dune2, maybe a bit less unique due to the extension of features, Dune2 had a precise palette of sounds and personality, Dune3 seems more than a definitive tool in that regard, a fair trade-off

Now i need to understand more deeply how the math formula utility can be used for music and wavetables galore in general, as i am kind of snob with wavetable creation, it always sounds like a metallic mishmash for me.

Have a nice synth journey you all