Strange Ableton-only bug uncovered when using Premium Trance

[great-bear]

In Ableton Live:

• Load Premium Trance
• Select "Shanghai" (preset 59)
• Select "Gigantic" (preset 58) and play something on the on-screen keyboard
• Select "FM Pikes" (preset 57)
• Select "Gigantic" (preset 58) and play something on the on-screen keyboard

You will notice that "Gigantic" sounds very different after previously selecting "FM Pikes".
You can keep flipping the presets to reproduce the problem
(you don't need to load a fresh instance each time)

I am using "Ableton Live" 9.7.1 under Windows 10
This problem doesn't occur inside "Tracktion 5" or "Ardour 5"
(which is weird, since I can't think what role the host could possibly be playing when using Dune 2's own preset-selection mechanism)

[ThehakkeMadman]

From Orion's help file:
"You have two choices for VST preset system - this setting controls where Orion will look for presets for VST and DX Instrument plugins. Either choose Internal Bank to use the internal banks of your plugin instruments, meaning that third-party plugins will display their internal presets in Orion's synth toolbar. Or, choose Orion .Prs to use Orion's own preset management system, meaning that VST and DX presets are handled in the same manner as the presets of Orion's built-in generators - you might prefer to use this option for several reasons: you may have saved preset files with a previous version of Orion, or your VSTi plugins may not have preset banks of their own, or you may simply prefer to have all synths work in the same way, regardless of wether they're built-in or plugin synths. If your plugins have preset-selection built into their own interface, you can of course still use that, regardless of which option you choose."

So, the "internal bank" option is like you had a hardware synth: if you tweak a certain preset and save it, the edit would affect other DAWs too. I think it depends on the DAW itself and how it handles those presets.

Ok, now here's my guess: maybe Ableton "looks" for changes between presets to save some processing time?
Does it matter if you play with that on-screen keyboard? And do you have to select those specific presets (Shanghai, Gigantic, FM Pikes and Gigantic again)? Maybe there's a certain parameter that is not set right when loading Gigantic so it keeps the parameter from the previous preset...

[Kriminal]

I dont know why you brought Orion up. He's using Ableton and Dune. Nothing to do with Orion...

[ThehakkeMadman]

Because I know Orion better than Cubase (still didn't try Ableton). Just wanted to say that it could depend on the DAW or, and that'S what I didn't say it maybe a bug in Dune.

[Teksonik]

I don't have that soundset but I can't imagine anything in them that could cause an issue that is not caused by other presets unless there is an odd Midi File or Wavetable involved. But if you can't reproduce the issue with any other soundset or presets then it could be something unusual with those patches. My bet at this point would be something with Live. See if you can reproduce the issue with other soundsets/ presets and if you can't after trying for a reasonable time we'll have to bring up the issue with Synapse and/or Kevin.

[great-bear]

Apologies - I wasn't clear enough: I am not using the host DAW for anything other than instantiating the synth. I am changing the presets using DUNE 2 not Ableton - that's why this is behaviour is surprising.

[Teksonik]

Understood but as I said I can't think of anything in a preset that would cause this behavior...in only one DAW... other than a Midi file or Wavetable that for some reason causes an issue. That soundset does require the latest version of DUNE 2 but since you said it works in other DAWs you must have the correct version. I've let Kevin know about this thread so perhaps he'll weigh in with an idea. You didn't say if you tried to reproduce this with other soundsets.

[great-bear]

Not yet - but here's a video demonstration using another preset from Premium Trance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvRZIY5iUM

[great-bear]

OK - there's no shortage of standard presets that don't load properly under Ableton Live

Here's the first few, from the Factory/Arp bank alone:

• Aquatix EDT (entire bass sequence missing)
• Brick Wall KS (sub-octave missing)
• FM Arpmod EDT (harmonic content markedly different)
• Freakstylez KS (very different - layers missing in Ableton)
• Groove Behind Me ST (high chord component missing)
• Magic EDT (sub-octave missing)
• Plucked Outburst KS (harmonic content markedly different)

I'm sure there are many more - but that should be enough for the guys at Synapse to figure out what is going wrong.

[Teksonik]

You might want to contact Ableton to figure out what is going wrong.

Anyway you've ruled out the Premium Trance soundset as the culprit.

[Teksonik]

I just tried the DUNE 2 factory patches you listed above in Reaper 64 bit, Win 10 64 bit and they all load and play from the GUI keyboard just fine.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Have to say, tried the factory arp presets in Ableton, and the differences are minimal when played in Live and Orion. These barely noticeable differences could be contributed to various reasons, but I haven't noticed anything dramatic as described.

[Teksonik]

There shouldn't be any difference at all. Right ?

[great-bear]

Have to say, tried the factory arp presets in Ableton, and the differences are minimal when played in Live and Orion.

As shown in the video demo above, the sound difference is anything but minimal on my system.

If you are not hearing a dramatic difference (such as missing entire sound layers and sequences as explained above) then this would suggest that DUNE 2 is making unreliable assumptions about the memory passed to it from the host, leading to different sonic results depending on the system.

[Marcin]

Here's the first few, from the Factory/Arp bank alone:

Could you please record how do you hear these patches (like the previous movie)?
On the first movie it sounds like the 1st voice is playing only.