Alternative software

[HYPNAGOGIA]

I think that if I ever go back to making music full-time, and Orion stops working for me for whatever reason, I might use Ableton. Even though I'm not as proficient with it as with Orion, there are tons of tutorials online to figure things out. Plus, twidling with it, I came to understand the basics of it, and I figured that I could use the Sessions clips on mixer channels as substitute for Orion's "patterns per instrument" kind of a thing to start building song. I hate the linear working, and most of the tutorials suggest most people work like that, but I could start writing patterns/clips, and then just drag them in arrangement when I'm ready to start building from the beginning of track. The only thing that I don't like is the measurement bar in the notation thingy.... this 1.1.1, 1.1.2 thing is confusing me. And as robust as Ableton seems, it feels like I'm doing things much slower in it. The good side that it has, is that it works seamlessly with two screens

But anyhoo... for now, I'm sticking with Orion... till the end of days

[Teksonik]

I was thinking the other day that Orion is like a Sports car that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds but has a top speed of 70. Other DAWs may take 10 seconds to get to 60 but they have a top speed of 200.

Yes I know Bones and others will disagree but hey it's just my opinion.

The thing is the longer I work in another DAW the faster the 0-60 speed gets but no matter how long you work in Orion it's top speed will always be 70 due to missing features. Not everybody needs those features but they are missing none the less.

But I still love Orion. I won't ever delete it but I can't see starting any new projects with Orion. I don't think anything will kill Orion itself except maybe an OS update and even that seems highly unlikely at least for the foreseeable future. I just don't want to give up the plugins that already don't work well in Orion and I wouldn't want to cringe after every update to a plugin praying that update didn't make it incompatible with Orion.

I can completely understand those who want to hold onto Orion for as long as possible if it works for them and it's all they will ever need. I just ask for the same understanding for the decision to move on and keep growing.

[bones]

The question you have to ask is "what do those features do?" I think it is reasonable to say that anything you want to do, you can do today on even a modestly spec'd PC. If one of those features was time-stretching, for example, then that is something you would have to do outside of Orion but would be able to do within most other sequencers. Either way, though, you can do it.

The decision you need to make, therefore, is whether being able to do 0-60 in 3 seconds is more or less important than having a top speed of 200. i.e. Is it more important to be able to do time-stretching inside your sequencer, even though that means choosing something that makes other tasks slower and/or more cumbersome, or is it something you do so rarely that it is still faster to do it externally and import the result, because of all the time you will save everywhere else?

Ultimately, it is a simple analysis if you take the time to do it. For me it is easy because there are no missing features in Orion. it does everything I could ever need or want, as well as a whole heap of things I probably won't ever use, and it does it in a simple, elegant way that makes sense. So the fact that other sequencers have new features means nothing to me because I don't need them. That's not to say there aren't some cool things in other sequencers, there definitely are, but nothing that can make up for all the things they don't do as well as Orion.

A good example is FL Studio - I got interested in it when I saw a video for the new version because it showed a couple of cool features that prompted me to download the demo and have a good look at it. But it didn't take long to discover that when I add a new instrument to a song, it doesn't automatically get assigned to the Mixer. I can hear it but it doesn't have a channel. That's just madness. If I want to hear my Monologue or my Ultranova or Sik's drums, I have to plug them in to a channel on our mixer. That's how the process works, that's how it's always worked. But not in FL Studio. Then you have the mixer, which has 104 channels, even if you only need five. OK, you can't go chopping off unused channels in a hardware mixer but, by the same token, I would never buy a 104 channel mixer because I only have four things to plug into it and a 104 channel mixer would take up far too much space (as it does on screen in FL Studio). I couldn't live with those things so I uninstalled the demo.

But that analysis will be different for everyone. We also rely very, very heavily on Orion's instruments and effects, so that's another aspect that keeps us using Orion. If, for some bizarre reason, you don't use Orion's generators and effects, that won't be such an issue for you, so your analysis might end in a different decision. The important thing is not to think that just because something has more features that it is therefore better. To go back to the sports car analogy - I use my car's ability to accelerate from 0-100 all the time but it has been many, many years since I have even tried to get it to it's maximum speed, so the fact that some other car might have a higher top speed is largely irrelevant to me, whereas it's acceleration is something I will appreciate every time I drive it.

[Kriminal]

Having used Orion since 99/00 im not changing. I gave up trying to learn something else. It would take years for me to learn the ins and outs of another host to the same level i know Orion, and as i prefer to work with patterns, i'd be wasting my time. I'll have given up music long before Orion stops working. I dont need any new plugins, so no probs with stuff not working (tho ive had no probs anyway). Mulab is ok, i can prob live with that at a push, but i dont need to.

As for cars, i hate driving. I drive to and from work and avoid it the rest of the time if possible.

[Teksonik]

Is it more important to be able to do time-stretching inside your sequencer, even though that means choosing something that makes other tasks slower and/or more cumbersome, or is it something you do so rarely that it is still faster to do it externally and import the result, because of all the time you will save everywhere else?

That's a perfect example. No it's not faster to do it externally then import the result than it is to simply drop a loop into the playlist and have it auto stretch......and so on. Another example would be FL's Chopper Tool in the Piano Roll, a feature I use with some frequency. Two clicks to chop notes or manually set the length of each note in a pattern. Chopper is much quicker. Multi-Point Automation Envelopes displayable in the Playlist etc etc....

Since you mentioned FL Studio and the mixer....FL's Mixer is different than others. It allows you to assign more than one source to a single mixer strip. Say you have three bass sounds in a project, you can send them all to the same mixer strip and add effects just once instead of having to use three instance of the same effects. They are more like Sends in that respect. As for Assigning a Generator to a mixer strip, a simple click on the word Track on the generators settings page automatically assigns it to the next free mixer strip or you can manually assign it to any track you wish. Like I said before converting your thinking from another DAW to FL's method of operation is harder than actually learning FL from scratch. The thing about FL is it doesn't have one workflow it has several. For example you can use one pattern to contain all your drum parts or you can use a separate pattern for each drum. You can use one Playlist Lane to contain all synth parts or give each generator it's own Playlist Lane and so on...Options.

But I'm not trying to convert anyone. I've had the luxury of owning FL Studio nearly as long as I have Orion so the conversion process for me has been relatively easy. Use what works for you and let everyone else use what works for them.....

I use FL for Synth based stuff, Reaper for Guitar based projects and Sonar for the rare occasion I fire up my hardware units. This combination works very well for me as each DAW has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

[Kriminal]

Why would you put 3 bass sounds on the same strip with the same fx? How do you eq each one so they dont become a big bass mush? That means you have to set vol/pan etc on the synth itself....?

I know that was just an example, but i cant think of a single time i would want more than one instrument on a channel...

[Teksonik]

Yes it was just an example and perhaps a poor one at that. You've never used a Send ?

I'll sometimes layer FPC Drum Kits to fatten them up and send them to the same mixer strips......Kicks on one, Snares on another etc. I usually send Samplers that are playing short Vocal snippets to the same Mixer strip so they can share the same effects.....just like a Send. That way if you have a combination of say 30 generators and or samples, audio tracks etc you don't have to use 30 Mixer Strips but you can if you want to....Options. You also don't have to use a Mixer Strip at all. Everything is routed to the Master by default. Again Options.

I'm not trying to convert you to FL Studio but I find it to be not only a replacement for Orion but due to the added features an upgrade as well. Not everyone will agree but that's the great thing, we all have so many choices now. The choice to stick with Orion is as valid for someone as it is for someone else to move on to something else.........

[Kriminal]

Yeah im not trying to convince anyone to do anything either, just saying im too far down the line to change my path

Doesnt bother me what ppl use, that would be daft, and im a very sensible person!

[Teksonik]

Well I don't know how sensible I am but I do understand your position.

[bones]

That's a perfect example. No it's not faster to do it externally then import the result than it is to simply drop a loop into the playlist and have it auto stretch.......

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The point was that if you save five minutes there but lose ten hours over the course of finishing the project, have you made the right decision to choose that host over Orion? But if yo had to do that a hundred times for every project, then of course you'd switch. You'd be crazy not to. Personally, I have never had to time-stretch anything in 35 years of making music.

Another example would be FL's Chopper Tool in the Piano Roll, a feature I use with some frequency. Two clicks to chop notes or manually set the length of each note in a pattern.

That sounds like Orion's Scissor tool or is it something else?

Since you mentioned FL Studio and the mixer....FL's Mixer is different than others. It allows you to assign more than one source to a single mixer strip. Say you have three bass sounds in a project, you can send them all to the same mixer strip and add effects just once instead of having to use three instance of the same effects.

But you wouldn't, you'd send those three channels to a bus and put the effects on there, once, just like in a real studio.

For example you can use one pattern to contain all your drum parts or you can use a separate pattern for each drum.

Just like Orion's DrumRack.

You can use one Playlist Lane to contain all synth parts or give each generator it's own Playlist Lane and so on...Options.

Pointless options, given to you by someone who doesn't know what he's doing. Seriously, why would I want to do that when I can as easily use Receive MIDI from...?

I use FL for Synth based stuff, Reaper for Guitar based projects and Sonar for the rare occasion I fire up my hardware units. This combination works very well for me as each DAW has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Meanwhile, I can use Orion for all of those things - one sequencer to rule them all! But I agree with your point overall - you should use what works for you.

[Teksonik]

Yes we're living in a wonderful time where everybody can find the tools they need to work the way they want.

[Teksonik]

I just picked up the 8 Track version of Bitwig for $12 from the KVR marketplace. It should be fun to play with although I doubt it will inspire me to purchase the full version. Should be useful for testing plugins.

[Kriminal]

I thought it was free....?

[Teksonik]

I think it comes free with some Midi Controllers. I don't see any place on the Bitwig site to download a free version. Oh well worst case is I got burned for $12.

The upgrade to the full version from 8 Track is $359 so I won't be upgrading but it should allow me to test plugins in the Bitwig environment.

[Kriminal]

I think it comes free with some Midi Controllers.

Ah ok... i did sign up for it years ago, but it took so long to come out, i lost interest

Expensive too