Problem with CPU - Upgrade to i7-8700k fix?

[birdlives1955]

I love Dune 2. It's my favorite .vst synth. I use it for solos, pads, and everything in between!

The only issue is that I play my synths live, and I like to run super low latency because I play jazz fusion and need fast response. I am on Windows, so the fastest I can set latency at is 64 samples i/o which is where I always set the audio buffer.

Some of the patches, especially when I layer two instances (but in some cases even single patches like Redepmtion from the original pads bank for example), click and pop when I play a lot of polyphony in a short amount of time. Obviously my CPU can't keep up.

I am running Windows 10 64 bit on a custom built portable mini-PC computer I made specifically for perfroming music with .vst's live. It is running Intel 8th Gen i3-8350K overclocked to 5.0ghz. Essentially, it's a quad-core processor with no hyperthreading so it's 5.0ghz with only 4 threads. Ram is not an issue, I have 32GB overclocked to around 3200mhz. When I built the machine, Intel's i7-8700k was not yet available, so I bought the i3-8350K so I could move ahead with getting all the software running and complicated MIDI routing for my live setup sorted out (this is my first Windows machine, I am coming from a Macbook Slow oops I meant Pro ha.).

I am assuming that upgrading to a chip with more threads like the i7-8700k might help this situation with the clicks and pops. I know Dune 2 takes advantage of multithreaded CPU's. My question is, will upgrading to the i7-8700k which has 6 cores and hyperthreading which = 12 threads and overclocked to around the same speed of ~5.0ghz fix the situation with the clicking and popping on certain heavily-CPU-hungry patches?

Thanks for your input.

[Teksonik]

Here's the numbers comparing your i3 8350K with my now aging i7 3770k. As you can see there is not much difference in performance (when not OC'd) but I don't get pops and clicks and I've played as many as four instances of DUNE 2 simultaneously (ASIO drivers 128 sample buffer). I do not over clock my system.

What Host or DAW do you use when performing ? It wouldn't be Cubase by any chance would it ?

I believe it's considered a good idea to turn off Multi-threading when using multiple instances but I never bother. Perhaps you could try that.

[Teksonik]

Anyway my point is that your system should not have any issues with a couple of instances of DUNE 2. I think the Pops and Clicks are related to something other than CPU Speed.

What is your sound card or external device ? ASIO Drivers ? Does this occur with any patch in DUNE or only certain patches ?

[bones]

It's a lot more than just threads, Core i7 has double the L3 cache of an i3 (8Mb, not 4Mb), plus Turbo Boost, for exactly the kinds of situations you are encountering. Performance will be massively improved.

[balistic]

Try this first: in your Windows Power Options, select the High Performance profile (or make a new profile), and under 'Change Plan Settings', set your 'minimum processor state' to 100%.

Sometimes crackling is caused by your CPU's dynamic frequency setting not being able to change clock-speeds fast enough for low-latency audio work. If you set the minimum state to 100%, it'll run at full speed regardless of the instantaneous CPU load.

[birdlives1955]

Here's the numbers comparing your i3 8350K with my now aging i7 3770k. As you can see there is not much difference in performance (when not OC'd) but I don't get pops and clicks and I've played as many as four instances of DUNE 2 simultaneously (ASIO drivers 128 sample buffer). I do not over clock my system.

What Host or DAW do you use when performing ? It wouldn't be Cubase by any chance would it ?

I believe it's considered a good idea to turn off Multi-threading when using multiple instances but I never bother. Perhaps you could try that.

Thanks a lot for your input. Interesting to hear our specs are somewhat similar and you get better performance than me.

I really want 64 samples i/o buffer because I play all my stuff live and I play jazz-rock-fusion so need fast response. I can deal with 128, but 64 is better.

My host DAW is the weird part of the equation. It is Usine Hollyhock 3. It's a bit of a wildcard, but you can program it to do things that are super deep and complicated in terms of MIDI routing and MIDI processing. For example I can make a set of chords in InsertPiz MIDIChords to be triggered by single notes from my EWI and send the output of MIDIChords to a virtual MIDI bus inside the program and then tell any synth I want to respond only to the data of that MIDI bus. Or I can program chords to be triggered by foot pedal MIDI buttons on one track and solo over the chords at the same time with my EWI on another track. I have a whole patch selection system setup in there too for selecting patches on the fly during gigs using MIDI foot pedal buttons. It's awesome.

Usine has a lot of issues though with audio cards. Especially on Windows. I was opening my computer last night for a gig, and of course, the audio driver would not start! The program must've crashed 20 times before I got it to open, finally, right before we were supposed to start. There are some inexcusable bugs in it, but when it works, it's awesome.

My audio soundcard is the Avid Mbox Mini. Those drivers have worked pretty well so far, although I'm starting to have trouble with them after Usine's newest update.

I will experiement with multi threading on/off.

It's not with all patches. Just some super deep patches with lots of modulation and voices that make this clicking and popping happen. Redemption from pads bank in the factory patches makes it crackle. I also get some crackling if I layer complex patches with even just 2 instances of Dune 2.

So I'll keep working on it. Thanks.

[birdlives1955]

It's a lot more than just threads, Core i7 has double the L3 cache of an i3 (8Mb, not 4Mb), plus Turbo Boost, for exactly the kinds of situations you are encountering. Performance will be massively improved.

Oh wow, interesting. I did not know that about the cache. I will buy one as soon as I can find one for a reasonable price, then. I can't believe they are being sold for $55 more than MSRP right now, seems like a ripoff. I overclock my chip to 5.0ghz and tell it to run at high performance mode, so it should be running at max speed all the time. I delidded it to avoid overheating.

[birdlives1955]

Try this first: in your Windows Power Options, select the High Performance profile (or make a new profile), and under 'Change Plan Settings', set your 'minimum processor state' to 100%.

Sometimes crackling is caused by your CPU's dynamic frequency setting not being able to change clock-speeds fast enough for low-latency audio work. If you set the minimum state to 100%, it'll run at full speed regardless of the instantaneous CPU load.

Thanks for your input. I did already select "High Performance Profile", but I didn't set the minimum processor state to 100%! I will try that. Thanks for the tip, I had never heard of that trick before.

[Teksonik]

It's a lot more than just threads, Core i7 has double the L3 cache of an i3 (8Mb, not 4Mb), plus Turbo Boost, for exactly the kinds of situations you are encountering. Performance will be massively improved.

Oh wow, interesting. I did not know that about the cache. I will buy one as soon as I can find one for a reasonable price, then. I can't believe they are being sold for $55 more than MSRP right now, seems like a ripoff. I overclock my chip to 5.0Ghz and tell it to run at high performance mode, so it should be running at max speed all the time. I delidded it to avoid overheating.

I wouldn't run out and buy a new CPU just for this issue. A quad core running at 5ghz should be able to run two instances of DUNE 2 regardless of cache etc. Even the computer I'm on now which is an i3 2100 running at 3.1Ghz can run two instances of DUNE 2 without pops and clicks and it's using ASIO4All as it's driver and the onboard soundcard.

There is no way your system should have issues under such a load. Of course it's possible to program patches that can be very cpu demanding but you really have to push D2 to get there.

Are you running at 24 Bit 192K ?

Anyway if you just want a new CPU then go for it but I wouldn't just for this issue until we determine what is actually causing the pops. You might end up with the same issue with the new CPU.....

[Teksonik]

Ok I just tried the "Redemption" patch and it melts this i3. It's the patch. All 8 Layers, Full Poly. Density at 4 on each Osc etc. Try pulling down the Amp ADSR release on All layers from 71% to around 25%. It tames the patch a great deal here without effecting the sound.

Kevin must have programmed that patch on an Uber machine.......

Here's the numbers I get on this computer. One instance of D2 running "Redemption" with the release pulled down. Held three notes. If this weak computer which is not a serious music production system can handle it then yours shouldn't even feel a thing. I'm also playing it as fast as my big fat fingers can move and not one pop with the edited patch but latency is set high at 512 samples on this machine.

[birdlives1955]

Ok I just tried the "Redemption" patch and it melts this i3. It's the patch. All 8 Layers, Full Poly. Density at 4 on each Osc etc. Try pulling down the Amp ADSR release on All layers from 71% to around 25%. It tames the patch a great deal here without effecting the sound.

Kevin must have programmed that patch on an Uber machine.......

Here's the numbers I get on this computer. One instance of D2 running "Redemption" with the release pulled down. Held three notes. If this weak computer which is not a serious music production system can handle it then yours shouldn't even feel a thing. I'm also playing it as fast as my big fat fingers can move and not one pop with the edited patch but latency is set high at 512 samples on this machine.

Hey Teksonic ~ Well, thanks a lot for taking the time to test that out and share the findings with me, I appreciate it. Unfortunately though the thing I love most about that patch is how the notes bleed into each other when you change chord voicings. Lovely sounding patch. I basically having it running on my 5.0ghz 8th Gen Intel i3, but it uses close to 50% CPU power sometimes. For the most part, you don't hear many artifacts, especially if you turn down "Unison voice" count it really is perfect, no clicks or pops, but the sound thins out a little.

It might also be my DAW Usine Hollyhock which is pretty CPU inneficient and doesn't help the situation. I'm looking into a backup DAW but my MIDI routing is very complicated on my live setup so it might not be possible. Maybe Ableton... Need to read up on the possibilities. I have some things happening in Usine which may not be possible in other programs.

Or maybe the answer is just upgrading to the new i7 which has a lot more juice under the hood.

Thanks for your help!

[Teksonik]

Have you tried Reaper ? It has impressive routing capabilities at least for me. I use it for recording my guitar. There is a demo and the discount license is only $60. It is incredibly stable and CPU efficient here but of course everybody's system and needs are different. It's only an 11 meg download as it doesn't come stuffed with sample content like most DAWs and can be run from a USB stick although I don't. It has some very interesting native effects plugins like a lot of Midi plugins. Reaper is fully skinnable and several pro looking themes exist.

I guess it's not bad manners to post the link here since Synapse's own DAW has been discontinued. Mods, if you find it offensive please delete.

https://www.reaper.fm/download.php

Or maybe the answer is just upgrading to the new i7 which has a lot more juice under the hood.

Again I urge caution not to get too excited about a new CPU. The i7 may provide impressive results but it's also possible you'll be somewhat disappointed by the gain in performance in relation to the cost of the new cpu. Don't expect that patch to go from 50% to 5% although I suppose it's possible.

But it sounds like you're just wanting to upgrade and there's nothing wrong with that. If I could justify the cost I'd upgrade my studio computer as well just because......well just because.

[Teksonik]

Ok you've got me curious so I dug a little deeper. Here's the chart showing the two CPUs:

CPU 120417.png

Of course that doesn't tell the whole story. Cache is 8 megs on the i3 and 12 on the i7. Bus speed is the same. CPU speed is a little slower on the i7 so the single thread score is not much better but the overall score is an impressive jump due to the physical/logical cores. This also doesn't take Overclocking into account but I assume you'll OC the i7 as well ?

If I did this exact upgrade I'd expect a nice bump in performance but I would also prepare myself just in case the jump isn't what the numbers would indicate.