OBsession: Envelopes

[blue monk]

What I am missing in vintage emulations are alternative envelopes that go beyond the original. Envelopes in several recent softsynths allow for slopes to be bent in various ways. For modern music, having precise control over envelopes is incredibly valuable.
Some classic hardware synths had snappy envelopes, some not so snappy. But even if they are fast and snappy, you are limited with how well the synth will work rhythmically for a particular track. Emulations typically are limited in the same way.
If it is possible to add an option where you have graphical modern envelopes, I would love that.

[Teksonik]

Using mathematics please give me a technical definition of "Snappy". For example what time values = Snappy ?

[blue monk]

Using mathematics please give me a technical definition of "Snappy". For example what time values = Snappy ?

exponential versus linear.

Of course, when you have a graphical display of an envelope, you are looking at curves versus straight lines. And not all curves are created equal.

[Teksonik]

So just like others who use the term Snappy you can't define it in mathematical terms, in values of Milliseconds. It simply remains an audio term with no real definable meaning like "Warm" or "Punchy"....Ok got it.....

[blue monk]

So just like others who use the term Snappy you can't define it in mathematical terms, in values of Milliseconds. It simply remains an audio term with no real definable meaning like "Warm" or "Punchy"....Ok got it.....

If the difference of linear versus exponential parameter changes is esoteric to you, then feel free to ignore.

[Teksonik]

Not esoteric to me at all but if you're going to ask for something you should be able to define what it is.....

If my history is correct some people complained that Dune 3's envelopes weren't "Snappy" enough and again no solid definition of snappy but Synapse added the Analog option for the envelopes and some people still complained and again no actual definition of snappy.

"Snappy" is not a real thing if it can't be defined in mathematical values. "Linear versus exponential" doesn't define values.

Snappy is one of those terms with no definition that annoys the heck out of me along with Warm and Punchy. They're just buzzwords and in reality mean absolutely nothing.

[blue monk]

"Linear versus exponential" doesn't define values.

An envelope is about the animation (change) of values. This change from value x to value y over a given time can be either linear or non-linear. With a graphical display of the envelope, non-linear could be something other than a curve, but curves is what I am thinking about.

The description is precise. You are welcome to disagree.

[Teksonik]

I have to disagree because I think you're wrong since you've provided no real definition of what you want. You've given no value to X or Y.

If all the people I've seen complain about Snappy envelopes could simply provide a valid definition of what that means then every developer could add at least the option for snappy envelops in every synth and then they'd have no reason to complain. But they have simply been unable to do so.

But good luck with your feature request for graphical envelopes in OBsession.

[blue monk]

I have to disagree

No surprise. No problem.

you've provided no real definition of what you want. You've given no value to X or Y

Wrong.

If all the people I've seen complain about Snappy envelopes could simply provide a valid definition of what that means

Snappy is a term that is 100% subjective. However, I have exactly explained what functionality I am thinking about.
There are graphical envelopes in a number of synths. I use Serum a lot. What you have, I don't know. But I would assume, that you have one where you can try for yourself. Wether you use linear animation of envelope parameters or animations that tend to be more parabolic (curved lines) makes a big difference in the perception of timing. If that is not a "valid definition" to you, then that is most likely an intellectual problem of yours.

[Teksonik]

you've provided no real definition of what you want. You've given no value to X or Y

Wrong.

So what times values equal Snappy ? Again you've given no useful information. Less than 1ms Attack time ? What Decay time equals snappy ?

that is most likely an intellectual problem of yours.

Your inability to provide a valid definition of "Snappy" is not my intellectual problem.

It just means you really don't know what you're asking for.........

Anyway like I said good luck with your request for graphical envelopes in an emulation of an ancient hardware synth.

[bones]

What I am missing in vintage emulations are alternative envelopes that go beyond the original. Envelopes in several recent softsynths allow for slopes to be bent in various ways. For modern music, having precise control over envelopes is incredibly valuable.
Some classic hardware synths had snappy envelopes, some not so snappy. But even if they are fast and snappy, you are limited with how well the synth will work rhythmically for a particular track. Emulations typically are limited in the same way.
If it is possible to add an option where you have graphical modern envelopes, I would love that.

First up, do you not understand what an emulation is? OBsession will have the same kind of envelopes the OB-Xa had. If you aren't interested in classic emulations or synths that make those kinds of sounds, then why would you be interested in OBsession?

Secondly, just because you can see a graphic of the envelope, doesn't make it "modern", nor does it guarantee it will be any "snappier" than any other envelope. As you point out, some classic synths had very snappy envelopes.

Lastly, you shouldn't need "snappy" envelopes for rhythmical work, shorter decay will normally do the job, even if you have to play around with resonance and modulation depth a bit to get what you're after.

[Richard]

What I am missing in vintage emulations are alternative envelopes that go beyond the original. Envelopes in several recent softsynths allow for slopes to be bent in various ways. For modern music, having precise control over envelopes is incredibly valuable.
Some classic hardware synths had snappy envelopes, some not so snappy. But even if they are fast and snappy, you are limited with how well the synth will work rhythmically for a particular track. Emulations typically are limited in the same way.
If it is possible to add an option where you have graphical modern envelopes, I would love that.

It could be done as an extra, however it is often not possible to replace VA envelopes with some generic envelope editor.

As an example, in a standard digital envelope, changing the attack time will do just this, changing the attack time. In an analog synth, however, turning the attack knob may change the time and slope simultaneously. Similarly, "snappy" envelopes are ihmo the result of nonstandard analog envelopes that would be hard to draw in an editor with the mouse.

[blue monk]

So what times values equal Snappy ? Again you've given no useful information.

The absolute timing between the start and end of individual segments of an envelope depends on the timing of the project, the arrangement, the function of the sound in the song, the swing, and the subjective choices of the producer. And it is not the critical parameter as the change in trajectory of the envelope segment is relevant.

As you may or may not remember from school:

y = a * x

versus

power function y = x^n

exponential function f(x) = n^x

There you have some maths, not that I'd be sure if this would be "useful" to you.

Your inability to provide a valid definition of "Snappy" is not my intellectual problem.

What "useful information" or "valid definition" to you is limited by your inability to understand the nature of the topic and apparent lack of personal experience in actually making music or unwillingness to simply try a softsynth that allows you to change envelope segments from linear to curved. It is easy to hear the difference, which you seem not to know. That is borderline comical, if I may say so.

The thing is that a non-technical term like 'snappy' is 100% appropriate because music is subjective, ultimately. With timings on delays, that is much simpler than with the timing of volume and filter envelopes.
To put anything into software, there has to be a technical explaination what the subject is. That has been stated here several times.
It is nothing new, either. There are softsynths which have graphical envelopes which can be set to linear or curved.
Try it out yourself, or don't.
If that in your mindspace is nothing that you can process, then I can't help you, nobody can.

Graphical envelopes in softsynths that allow curved segments (A, D, R) are realised by program code, maths, of course. But they are typically set by ear. That is were the matter becomes 100% subjective, hence the term 'snappy' to to account for this difference.
Wether someone I don't know on a forum on the internet gets it or doesn't, what does that matter to me?

[blue monk]

First up, do you not understand what an emulation is? OBsession will have the same kind of envelopes the OB-Xa had. If you aren't interested in classic emulations or synths that make those kinds of sounds, then why would you be interested in OBsession?

That is a good point. I am interested in this emulation even if it tries to 'only' emulate the real thing and absolutely not add any functionality.

But it shouldn't be too surprising to you, that other people (maybe not you), have the idea that some functionality could be added.
And actually, I would argue that automation of parameters via your DAW already extends the functionality.
Also, I could argue that for each instance of the softsynth, you would need to buy an additional license.

You cannot automate all parameters on classic synths from the 1980ies. The few that allow midi-CC would have timing issues if used extensively.
And for using multiple instances of a hardware synth, you need several of them.

Features like these already go beyond what the originals could do, strictly speaking.

Secondly, just because you can see a graphic of the envelope, doesn't make it "modern", nor does it guarantee it will be any "snappier" than any other envelope. As you point out, some classic synths had very snappy envelopes.

100% correct. I know of one softsynth that has a graphical display of the envelopes, but they are completely linear only. That doesn't do anything for me.

There is a demo on youtube of an Oberheim XPander with an envelope modification (actually, I think they replaces the CPU with something modern). That really takes the already great synth to a new level.

Lastly, you shouldn't need "snappy" envelopes for rhythmical work, shorter decay will normally do the job, even if you have to play around with resonance and modulation depth a bit to get what you're after.

I have one emulation that I love. But I wish it had envelopes like Serum. It has its limitations.

Arturia always add some functions. But I listened to a comparison with the original and the Arturia could not get anywhere close.

[blue monk]

What I am missing in vintage emulations are alternative envelopes that go beyond the original. Envelopes in several recent softsynths allow for slopes to be bent in various ways. For modern music, having precise control over envelopes is incredibly valuable.
Some classic hardware synths had snappy envelopes, some not so snappy. But even if they are fast and snappy, you are limited with how well the synth will work rhythmically for a particular track. Emulations typically are limited in the same way.
If it is possible to add an option where you have graphical modern envelopes, I would love that.

It could be done as an extra, however it is often not possible to replace VA envelopes with some generic envelope editor.

As an example, in a standard digital envelope, changing the attack time will do just this, changing the attack time. In an analog synth, however, turning the attack knob may change the time and slope simultaneously. Similarly, "snappy" envelopes are ihmo the result of nonstandard analog envelopes that would be hard to draw in an editor with the mouse.

I have never seen the envelopes of analog synths visualised. The SH 101 has the reputation of having excellent envelopes. In other cases like the Oberheim XPander, I think that this one has digitally generated envelopes. I am not 100% sure.

All that said, I do not expect 1.0 of you OB-Xa having such a functionality and this will not be a deal breaker. I will try it as soon as a demo is available and will most likely buy it. I am already holding back money for it.