Improvements on the mixer?

[V/M]

...in your example, what's coming out of the grand piano channel is still fine, though extremely loud.
it's at the main channel that it is being overdriven and clipping. add a level adjustment plugin to the master channel further lower than volume and the sound should be good. or route it to a bus and lower the level at the both the bus and the master channel.

[manducator]

Thanks for the explanation, guys.

I was always convinced that I should keep every meter under 0 dB. It's the first time that somebody says that only the master channel is important.

[Teksonik]

...it's at the main channel that it is being overdriven and clipping.

At -18db? Why would the output volume be at +10db when the master channel's volume is set to -18 db?

Of course I could add a limiter that's not the point. This is just an example. The point is the accuracy of Orion's mixer readouts................

[HYPNAGOGIA]

If what I understood here is true, putting Mixer VU meters to reflect the true values would render them near the useless, as you would barely even see them doing anything, in which case I do believe they are better the way they are now. And Mark said it's 6 dB difference, so no biggie

And I think Grand could use a volume control. Yep.

[Teksonik]

If what I understood here is true, putting Mixer VU meters to reflect the true values would render them near the useless,

Yet accurate meters exist in other audio apps.............

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Wouldn't know, never really stayed with other hosts (audio editors don't count here) to dabble into proving the accuracy of mixer VU meters.

Generally speaking, it doesn't really matter to me. What master meters are showing me is of the utmost importance to me, everything else is "just there to have". I could easily do without mixer meters, but I prefer to have some indication what's going on there. As for the accuracy, I think at this point only Rich can give a valid input why things are they way they are now, if it can be made to match the accuracy of the output meters and if it really has any impact on the performance or not. All of us here can only guess, argue and compare, nothing more - which quite frankly can go on forever.

[DMuzik]

Yet accurate meters exist in other audio apps.............

Yup... accurate meters in Orion has been on my personal wishlist for a long time.

[Teksonik]

Generally speaking, it doesn't really matter to me.

I think the point is perhaps the lack of accurate meters may have some impact on the popularity of Orion. Is this something that has kept people from purchasing Orion in the past? I don't know I'm just asking but the post above this one is an indication that accurate meters are an issue...............

I'm sure it's the goal for everyone involved to take Orion to the next level...........is this an issue that needs to be addressed in order to achieve that goal? Again I'm just asking.................

[V/M]

...it's at the main channel that it is being overdriven and clipping.

At -18db? Why would the output volume be at +10db when the master channel's volume is set to -18 db?

do you have Master Volume before Master Effects turned off?

[Teksonik]

...it's at the main channel that it is being overdriven and clipping.

At -18db? Why would the output volume be at +10db when the master channel's volume is set to -18 db?

do you have Master Volume before Master Effects turned off?

No, "Master Volume Before Master Inserts" is On............Same results if it's selected or not since there are no effects used in this example.

[bones]

Yeah, that should give you accurate metering (at least that is why Rich put it in there, IIRC).

Yet accurate meters exist in other software audio apps.................

Do those applications also have infinite headroom? If so, then I can't imagine how they could provide accurate metering in a realistic range, because infinite headroom mean +/- infinity. To be fair, the headroom is not really infinite but it is as good as but it shoudl sill not be possible to provide meaningful and accurate metering.

you say they can't be over driven but load an Acoustic grand plugin and pull the mixer all the way up...That's not over driven?

If you reduce the master level enough you will eventually hear crystal clear piano, I'm sure.

So with a main mixer strip set to 0db and the master set to -18db the overall volume is +10 db . Is this the way things should work?

Who cares? It's irrelevant in the digital world. If it was really +10db, all you would hear is distorted garbage. As long as you can render a .wav file that doesn't clip, nothing else is of any consequence at all. All it requires is an adjustment to your hardware way of thinking - a new paradigm for a new medium.

At -18db? Why would the output volume be at +10db when the master channel's volume is set to -18 db?

You also have to take into account the big volume knob on the Main Toolbar. It's a similar situation to balancing the output of your amp and the level of your input to get the desired result. But again, I'd stress that it doesn't matter and there is no reason whatsoever to give a toss about levels, as long as you avoid clipping. I put absolutely no effort at all into getting my levels right, I just build a mix at a comfortable volume (the volume controls on my monitors are inaccessible) and I always reduce the volume by about 20% before I render anything. That invariably leaves me with massive amounts of headroom when I get to Soundforge, which is perfect (as long as I render to 24 bit). OTOH, in the old days of hardware and tape, massive amounts of headroom would raise the perceived noise level in the recording, which was undesirable. In the digital world, it is irrelevant.

I think the point is perhaps the lack of accurate meters may have some impact on the popularity of Orion.

I really don't see any value in pandering to people's ignorance, it simply perpetuates poor understanding of the process.

[Teksonik]

Yet accurate meters exist in other software audio apps.................

Do those applications also have infinite headroom?

I'm not sure. What is the point of Infinite Headroom? Can you explain the concept? I've read something about floating point math and such..............

you say they can't be over driven but load an Acoustic grand plugin and pull the mixer all the way up...That's not over driven?

If you reduce the master level enough you will eventually hear crystal clear piano, I'm sure.

Certainly but that's not the same as not being able to overdrive a mixer channel as you said.

So with a main mixer strip set to 0db and the master set to -18db the overall volume is +10 db . Is this the way things should work?

Who cares? It's irrelevant in the digital world. If it was really +10db, all you would hear is distorted garbage.

Oh it's +10db and that's all I hear....try it yourself.

At -18db? Why would the output volume be at +10db when the master channel's volume is set to -18 db?

You also have to take into account the big volume knob on the Main Toolbar.

Why is there another volume control past the master mixer level? (It's set to 32 for this example by the way whatever 32 represents certainly the most cryptic number in the chain)

As long as you can render a .wav file that doesn't clip,

Meters are tools designed to help accomplish this task..................

I think the point is perhaps the lack of accurate meters may have some impact on the popularity of Orion.

I really don't see any value in pandering to people's ignorance, it simply perpetuates poor understanding of the process.

Yet other highly successful apps have accurate metering and render high quality audio so........ At any rate those ignorant people seem to be spending their money elsewhere......can you say Orion's meters are not one of the reasons why?

[HYPNAGOGIA]

I'm not sure. What is the point of Infinite Headroom? Can you explain the concept? I've read something about floating point math and such..............

In a nutshell, it means you can't overdrive the software on the engine level, where the mixer is. The only place where you can is between the software and the audio interface (sound card), which in Orion terms would be the output (Master). That's why it's important to have accurate metering there, while it is completely irrelevant for the mixer.

Though, I can understand the confusion, here's the deal. Regardless of the Master volume position, it's simply impossible to clip a sound on the mixer, because of the infinite headroom. You can drive the mixer fader all the way up, and it will reach 0 and stop there. The clipping/distortion that you actually hear (as you said you can hear +10db - and I'm sure everybody can hear when that happens) is actually happening on the output. That's why you need to lower the Master volume when that happens - which also says in itself that it's important to have good meters there, where it really counts.

Why is there another volume control past the master mixer level? (It's set to 32 for this example by the way whatever 32 represents certainly the most cryptic number in the chain)

It's an equivalent of having a knob there in the center position. 32 is simply the center between 1 and 64 (in image frame count terms).

As long as you can render a .wav file that doesn't clip,

Meters are tools designed to help accomplish this task..................

Yes, for the output. Having mixer levels in certain positions is completely irrelevant as long as you lower master so that clipping doesn't occur.

Yet other highly successful apps have accurate metering and render high quality audio so........ At any rate those ignorant people seem to be spending their money elsewhere......can you say Orion's meters are not one of the reasons why?

I wouldn't say that's the main reason.
The majority of sales come from advertising, or more likely "word of mouth" - recommendations. Do you know what's the most common recommendation said to beginners on forums seeking advice on what host to get?

"Go with Cubase, it's made for people"

Yep, you read that right. The most ignorant and stupid recommendation you can think of, yet there it is. Does that in any way say anything about the host's functionality? Does it refer that it has accurate mixer meters? Not in the slightest. Cubase is good to work when you have loads of hardware you need to connect and record, but when it comes to soft-synths, I find Orion beats it tenfolds with its ease of use.

[V/M]

If you reduce the master level enough you will eventually hear crystal clear piano, I'm sure.

Certainly but that's not the same as not being able to overdrive a mixer channel as you said.

lowering the level on the master channel until the piano is clear would prove that the sound is clipping on the master channel and not the mixer channel for the piano.

do you have Master Volume before Master Effects turned off?

No, "Master Volume Before Master Inserts" is On............Same results if it's selected or not since there are no effects used in this example.

sorry, my mistake. i was thinking that the T-Racks metering plugin was on the master channel. I also misunderstand what was at -18db.. i thought meant the meter on the master channel was peaking at -18db. but now, I realize that i misunderstood: it is the slider on the master channel that is at the location of the -18db mark. obviously, if the sliders are set too high, things are going to clip. that seems like correct behavior to me.

[bones]

I'm not sure. What is the point of Infinite Headroom? Can you explain the concept? I've read something about floating point math and such..............

It just means that no matter how hot the signal is, it will never clip. As meters in hardware mixers are there primarily to help you avoid clipping, they really have little purpose where clipping is impossible.

If you reduce the master level enough you will eventually hear crystal clear piano, I'm sure.

Certainly but that's not the same as not being able to overdrive a mixer channel as you said.

Yeah, it is. You can overdrive the output but you can't overdrive an individual channel, which is why you will get a clear signal if you turn the master down enough. i.e. The master is clipping, not the channel.

Oh it's +10db and that's all I hear....try it yourself.

+10dB has no meaning, it is relative to an arbitrary value. 10dB above what? In hardware it refers to the point where the signal has no amplification or attenuation on it. It is a useful reference for keeping a signal as pure as possible. In the digital realm you can keep a signal absolutely pristine without having to worry about any of that, so +10dB really doesn't mean anything.

Why is there another volume control past the master mixer level? (It's set to 32 for this example by the way whatever 32 represents certainly the most cryptic number in the chain)

It has always been there, the Master strip has not. I normally have it at around 10 or 12, otherwise it's too loud in my speakers. Then I turn it down to 7 or 8 before I render.

Meters are tools designed to help accomplish this task..................

And the big meter on the Main Toolbar will do exactly that. It is the ONLY one that matters, which is why mine are 905 pixels long.

Yet other highly successful apps have accurate metering and render high quality audio so.

And Orion renders high quality audio with just one accurate meter, proving that accurate meters are not required. I also doubt that any of the success of other apps is built around their metering. It's eye-candy, at best.

At any rate those ignorant people seem to be spending their money elsewhere......can you say Orion's meters are not one of the reasons why?

[/quote]
Well, it seemed to be just as popular when it had no meters at all, so I'd have to say they are not.

I'm sorry if I am not explaining it well enough for you to understand, it is something I stopped thinking about years and years ago, once I realised that it just doesn't matter any more.