Improvements on the mixer?

[Teksonik]

. You can drive the mixer fader all the way up, and it will reach 0 and stop there. The clipping/distortion that you actually hear (as you said you can hear +10db - and I'm sure everybody can hear when that happens) is actually happening on the output. That's why you need to lower the Master volume when that happens - which also says in itself that it's important to have good meters there, where it really counts.

Yet the master volume is set to -18db and the output is +10 db.............

Why is there another volume control past the master mixer level? (It's set to 32 for this example by the way whatever 32 represents certainly the most cryptic number in the chain)

It's an equivalent of having a knob there in the center position. 32 is simply the center between 1 and 64 (in image frame count terms).

Doesn't answer why there is another volume knob past that master volume (which also appears to be pre master effects).

Meters are tools designed to help accomplish this task..................

Yes, for the output. Having mixer levels in certain positions is completely irrelevant as long as you lower master so that clipping doesn't occur.

Yet a master level of -18 db yields an output of +10db.............You see the problem?

The majority of sales come from advertising, or more likely "word of mouth" - recommendations. Do you know what's the most common recommendation said to beginners on forums seeking advice on what host to get?

"Go with Cubase, it's made for people"
Yep, you read that right. The most ignorant and stupid recommendation you can think of, yet there it is. Does that in any way say anything about the host's functionality? Does it refer that it has accurate mixer meters? Not in the slightest. Cubase is good to work when you have loads of hardware you need to connect and record, but when it comes to soft-synths, I find Orion beats it tenfolds with its ease of use.

I don't know what forums you're reading but the most common recommendations I see are for Reaper and FL Studio. Cubase hardly gets a mention anymore most likely because of it's dongle C/P method.

The whole point of this is why are there tens of thousands of people using other apps and only tens of people using Orion? Certainly the opportunity for word of mouth is just as great at KVR and Gearslutz etc and I've never seen Reaper advertise anywhere. Could the lack of coherent metering be one of the reasons why Orion remains a boutique app? What's the likelihood that the tens of thousands of users of other apps are ignorant or......... well you take it from there.

[Teksonik]

It just means that no matter how hot the signal is, it will never clip. As meters in hardware mixers are there primarily to help you avoid clipping, they really have little purpose where clipping is impossible.

Yet it's possible to clip Orion even with the master set to -18db...........

+10dB has no meaning, it is relative to an arbitrary value. 10dB above what?

I'm afraid if you don't understand the meaning of Decibels in relation to metering then any further discussion is pointless


Ok guys you've made your opinions known. DaZoid added his opinion for accurate metering so we can move on. Just slap a limiter at Orion's master and don't even look at any of the eye candy numbers as they are useless. If that's the way you think a pro audio app should work then please do party on........

[Richard]

Infinite headroom is totally standard- Orion has it since the beginning, Cubase has it, Ableton Live has it, FLStudio has it...

Why would you want to artificially clip channels when it isn't needed?

[HYPNAGOGIA]

I don't think the clipping is the main objection here.

The question everyone not understanding what the deal about it is asking is why the mixer VU meters don't reflect that on the Master channel, like when you solo an instrument, the readouts on the mixer and master are different.

[Richard]

Of course they are different - dependent on the position of the master fader and whether you applied any mastering plugins, etc.

[Mark]

Both faders set to -17dB (top tool bar volume at 32), one instrument playing a single sustained note, there is a clear 6dB difference between generator mixer VU and master VU (and also with signal analyser VSTs on each strip). That 6dB difference is consistent until you get down towards -infinity. It's the same using any single generators/instruments.

[Mark]

Just noticed this on top and it completely stumps me. If I play a note (-6dB on mixer strip) e.g. on Dune, that goes straight to the master channel it comes out at -12dB (as explained above). However, if I route it through a buss then the master drops to -18dB and the buss registers -24dB. I've never thought properly about summing in mixers, so maybe I'm not getting something. I've always stuck with worrying about whether the master is clipping or not rather than individual mixer/buss channels.

[bones]

Well, of course. If the default value is -18dB, you would expect the signal to be attenuated at every stage. If you want the signal to pass through at a constant level, you should set the bus and master levels to 0dB, except you can't because 0dB is infinity. This is the perfect example of why it doesn't matter.

Could the lack of coherent metering be one of the reasons why Orion remains a boutique app? What's the likelihood that the tens of thousands of users of other apps are ignorant or......... well you take it from there.

Given that FL had tens of thousands of users before it had a mixer at all, I'd suggest it is probably not a factor. Does FL even have accurate metering? It sure as hell didn't when I used it, it just had "activity" lights on each channel, which is really all you need.

I'm afraid if you don't understand the meaning of Decibels in relation to metering then any further discussion is pointless

I understand perfectly - when your signal gets to 0dB, it means you have no headroom left. So if something has infinite headroom, what is 0dB? Is it infinity? Or is it simply irrelevant? (Hint: Its not the first one.)

Just slap a limiter at Orion's master and don't even look at any of the eye candy numbers as they are useless. If that's the way you think a pro audio app should work then please do party on........

Why whack a limiter on it? I never do that, I make sure the meters on the Main Toolbar never go above 0dB. As far as I can tell, those meters are 100% accurate and that is the only place it matters. Why can't you understand that?

Both faders set to -17dB (top tool bar volume at 32), one instrument playing a single sustained note, there is a clear 6dB difference between generator mixer VU and master VU (and also with signal analyser VSTs on each strip). That 6dB difference is consistent until you get down towards -infinity. It's the same using any single generators/instruments.

See, this is exactly why I have always said that the meters shouldn't have any values ascribed to them. let them just dance up and down and everyone will be happy, but when you put values on them, people expect them to be accurate (which is fair enough). Just get rid of the values and everyone will be happy in their ignorance, I'm sure.

[DaZoid]

Just slap a limiter at Orion's master and don't even look at any of the eye candy numbers as they are useless. If that's the way you think a pro audio app should work then please do party on........

A limiter on the master is one of the worst things you can do! Not sure who wrote that but pretty sure that it's a baaad idea. Every mastering engineer would just send your files back as he would not be able or want to process that stuff. Too many squares in the waveform.

As Bones said. It is important that you stay unter 0 db in the Master Output of the MASTER SECTION mixer. This level meter accurately shows the actual level of your mix and should be the reference while mixing your track.

[V/M]

It is important that you stay under 0 db in the Master Output of the MASTER SECTION mixer. This level meter accurately shows the actual level of your mix and should be the reference while mixing your track.

and if you're exporting at 32 bit, you can work way below 0 db without any concern of loss of fidelity.

Yet the master volume is set to -18db and the output is +10 db.

I still don't understand why this is a problem.. what do you expect to happen?

[V/M]

Yes, for the output. Having mixer levels in certain positions is completely irrelevant as long as you lower master so that clipping doesn't occur.

Yet a master level of -18 db yields an output of +10db.............You see the problem?

the problem is that what is feeding INTO the master channel is at such a high level that you need to further reduce the gain level to compensate. you mention the reduction and the output, but the input plays a very important role in the equation.

[knechtodawas]

Sorry for reactivating this thread, but I have a question concerning this issue.

Following situation: I insert two different instruments with similar characteristics (e.g. Tomcat and Pro-9) and adjust their gain in the mixer until the master VU shows the same dB level for both instruments (e.g. -8dB). If I now have a look at the VU in the mixer, both instruments have different levels. Why?

[DaZoid]

+1 for being able to adjust several volume meters at once!

The rest is ok as is. As I always check the master meter if it's about volume, the instrument meters are not so important.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Sorry for reactivating this thread, but I have a question concerning this issue.

Following situation: I insert two different instruments with similar characteristics (e.g. Tomcat and Pro-9) and adjust their gain in the mixer until the master VU shows the same dB level for both instruments (e.g. -8dB). If I now have a look at the VU in the mixer, both instruments have different levels. Why?

Because they are two instruments with different characteristics. The only real measure is what Master VU is showing you, Mixer VU's are only internal and as such are more or less trivial. Same goes for Returns and Bus channels.

[Junction-Earth]

I know I'm gonna get slapped hard here for even writing in this thread because its old, and perhaps I missed one of the posts that explained everything very well. And makes my post "useless timewasting reading".

I won't tell you my background here, because if my attempt at putting this thread to it's final restingplace is a bit "off" I'll make a fool out of myself In my oppinion. I should know these things.

This is for those that doesn't already have some sence of the term dB...

My view is that the term dB (decibel) resides entirely from the analog world (the real world) as a logarithmic reference measurement and can't be applied in a digital signalflow unless a maximum headroom is defined by choice, meaning that I "decide" to code a "maximun level" for something into an application.

In analog "real world equipment" the headroom/maximum level is decided by the components and signalpath of the hardware.
Because of the fact that the level of sound in the "real world" can be as loud as the air surround us allows, the value of
decibel refers instead of how much a sound is dampened by adding a negative value to it. That's why all mixers refers to (-)dB.
None the less, eventually an infinately loud digital signalflow has to reach an analog medium which nowadays usually is when digital gets converted to analog in your soundinterfaces DAC and then passed on to the studiomonitors.
Coming back to the fact that the receiving end of the digital signalflow is limited by hardware, a virtual headroom has to be created to limit soundlevels. This is done on Orions masterchannel and on the toolbar meters together.
And headrooms(maximum levels) are also present in all audiofile formats out there... like mp3, wav, aiff etc. Some formats has a bitdepth that allows more headroom. But your analog equipment by design doesn't get more headroom even if you play a "large headroom" format on them. A virtual headroom is in place. If you shot to much signal into an analog gear you overdrive it, in the analog sence. Just as alot of VST effects simulate. Because this can sound cool, if the gear is right.

The "reference value" of the separate mixer channels in Orion are actually very nice, not just as "relative" reference to dampening, but as a reference to the movement of any recorded "automation" done on the channels.

I didn't think of that Orions mixerchannels had infinate headroom until I read this thread but knowing this doesn't really affect my way of using Orion mixer.
My way of using is by knowing how the digital domain works and how the final resulting sound actually sounds like when played in the real world by the monitors.

Please don't kill me for this post. Someone out there might think it's good reading.

Please correct me if there are faults here. Because it should be accurate... to be good reading.