D U N E user waveforms

[Kriminal]

i can have a single cycle wavefrom sampled on every note, from a hardware synth, and use that, the file would still be tiny.

i think user wavetable are a better idea myself tho, along with an app or at the very least in depth instructions for everyone to create them

How would user wavetables differ from the .sfz format ?

a wavetable is one 'lon'g audio file with markers (not quite that simple but thats the basics i think) and sfz is a collection of diff samples

wavetables are tiny, sfz can be any size.

ability to load wavetables from synths such as blofield/ppg etc would be very nice

[Kriminal]

sfz's are good for several things, one being multi samples

i can have a single cycle wavefrom sampled on every note, from a hardware synth, and use that, the file would still be tiny.

SF2 are multi sampled too, aren't they? I really can't tell the difference. Maybe the support for the format, I don't know.

And I agree for cycle waveform samples, but the question is what happens when people start throwing in long samples encoded in HQ? You will get big files very quickly. Of course, that would be on the them to use (or not) lengthy samples.
So, should the use of sfz's be limited then? I don't see how that's possible, maybe if you limit the file size used or something, or do extensive check for sample times, as a measure of prevention from using X minutes long samples across the key range.

why does it matter what thefile size is? you're not forced to share your sounds, and if you can put up with slow loading times then great.

sfz is just easy to make, easy to edit, sf2 is a bit more work.

[Teksonik]

Taken from the Cakewalk's page, it's a collection of samples put inside one file. So, how is that different from a SoundFont definition? There is none. The only difference is structural and functional implementations, with added compression for sfz. But it still falls under the SoundFont category

Soundfonts and .sfz files are two completely different formats. Sfz files can be edited and created using WordPad. Soundfonts used to require you to have Soundblaster card and Vienna software to edit but I believe there is third party software to edit SF2 files now............

Soundfonts are sort of outdated while the .sfz format is much easier to work with and has more recent third party support. So yes there is a difference.........

[Teksonik]

i can have a single cycle wavefrom sampled on every note, from a hardware synth, and use that, the file would still be tiny.

i think user wavetable are a better idea myself tho, along with an app or at the very least in depth instructions for everyone to create them

How would user wavetables differ from the .sfz format ?

a wavetable is one 'lon'g audio file with markers (not quite that simple but thats the basics i think) and sfz is a collection of diff samples

wavetables are tiny, sfz can be any size.

ability to load wavetables from synths such as blofield/ppg etc would be very nice

How would the user create a wavetable? How do you place the Markers? I guess Wavefusion's current wavetable format which can also be edited with a text editor would be the logical way to create new tables but isn't it limited to 256 sample waves? (don't remember it's been a while)
It's just that the .sfz format already exists, is well supported and is royalty free....but I can see the advantage of having a proprietary format so all content would come from Synapse....Selling wave expansion packs or licensing the format might be a great way to generate income from new and existing DUNE owners.......

In my opinion if there are indeed plans for a DUNE 2, minor Mod Matrix tweaks and similar small changes won't likely create much of a buzz. It's going to take something like expanded waveforms, .sfz support or something similar to take DUNE to the next version. Again this may not be Rich's vision but as a paying DUNE customer I can't think of anything else that I would want for a version 2.....and let me say this DUNE is a great synth right now....certainly nothing wrong with it but if there is to be a version 2 I think it will have to include some substantial additions....at least I hope it will.........

[HYPNAGOGIA]

why does it matter what thefile size is? you're not forced to share your sounds, and if you can put up with slow loading times then great.

As a person who has made and sold banks for DUNE, requiring from you to prepare them and upload, I honestly hoped you'd know what I'm talking about when it comes to the file size.

Soundfonts and .sfz files are two completely different formats. Sfz files can be edited and created using WordPad. Soundfonts used to require you to have Soundblaster card and Vienna software to edit but I believe there is third party software to edit SF2 files now

Well, yeah, of course they're different formats, otherwize they'd both be the same. Rather obvious, don't you think?
I meant as a general category that each would belong to, because it is the same one, no matter how you call it - a multi-sample library. Obviously calling both soundfonts wasn't good description, since SF is a brand name of CL and EMU, so my bad on that part.
And I know what each of them are, I've used them both. Used to make SF2's too with Awave Studio long time ago.

Anyway, I'm done here. Carry on.

[Kriminal]

why does it matter what thefile size is? you're not forced to share your sounds, and if you can put up with slow loading times then great.

As a person who has made and sold banks for DUNE, requiring from you to prepare them and upload, I honestly hoped you'd know what I'm talking about when it comes to the file size.

sure, but in reality, its common enough these days to share big files, look at Alchemy banks for example, some of them are huge (where as one i made was tiny as i only used single cycle wavs)

i dont see size as a problem, hard drives are huge and cheap, as is high speed internet for most ppl.

personally im happy to just use the saw waveform, which is mostly what i do

[Kriminal]

How would the user create a wavetable? How do you place the Markers? I guess Wavefusion's current wavetable format which can also be edited with a text editor would be the logical way to create new tables but isn't it limited to 256 sample waves? (don't remember it's been a while)

well, diff synths have diff size standards, but like i said, if an app was made or a good manual was made, anyone could put together a' wavetable' for Dune

[Mark]

The single cycle waves that are used in DUNE are each 2048 samples long, so the current wavetable in DUNE, which is 69 x 2048 samples, comes out at a bit short of 230kb.

[Teksonik]

Which I think is the point.....only so much information can be contained in such small samples. The same with all the single cycle waveforms out there (Galbanum etc). They give you some basic building blocks to create a sound but lack the information to create for example detailed Choir, Strings or Tubular Bell etc sounds. That's where the multi sample .sfz format has it's advantages. I wouldn't want or need to load a Gig sized Piano into DUNE but the ability to add more detailed Osc content would be most welcome here.... I envision loading a different .sfz into each of DUNE's 8 voices and then cycling through them with an LFO for some great evolving Pads and soundscapes. But as I've said before that may not be Rich's vision for DUNE 2 and I don't think .sfz support will be added so I'll still give my +1 to user wavetables or single cycle wav import...........

[Mark]

I appreciate what your saying Tek and I think sfz+ support is a good idea, although it would probably be a lot of extra work for Rich to implement, whereas I imagine extending wavetable support would be relatively trivial.

You can pack a lot of information in to 70 cycles in a wavetable, especially if you concentrate on the attack portion of a sound of interest (I'm talking mostly for acoustic sounds here). In fact, if one thinks about it, combined with normal oscillators (or a different wavetable per oscillator) we're looking at a souped up synth along the lines of say a Korg M1, or the Emu sample and synthesis synths as well as Roland's LA synths, where you have much more detail in the sample part, which was generally used for the attack portion of the sound, than those synths ever had.

Another thing that would be cool, although it should be another topic I guess, would be to have filter morphing as in the Z-plane filters that you get in the Emu sample and synthesis synths like the Orbit, Morpheus etc. That and user defined wavetables would be enough for DUNE 2 IMHO.

Edit: you can of course do a crude filter morph already using the Mod matrix, but that is more of a cross fade than a morph.

[Kriminal]

The single cycle waves that are used in DUNE are each 2048 samples long

really? im sure rich used a few i sent him and they were much smaller...maybe he resized them.

[Teksonik]

You can pack a lot of information in to 70 cycles in a wavetable,

Unfortunately not enough for detailed Choir sounds etc.........

In fact, if one thinks about it, combined with normal oscillators (or a different wavetable per oscillator) we're looking at a souped up synth along the lines of say a Korg M1

The M1 contains 4 MB of samples.....the D-50 much less.......But why limit ourselves to 1987 technology ? I do agree with the part about .sfz support probably being difficult for Rich to implement but that issue aside it would be much preferable over simple wavetables and lead to a greater expansion of DUNE's sound palatte..........in my opinion of course..........

[Mark]

In no way am I suggesting limitations here. That's why I said "souped up".

Can you give some examples (mp3 or whatever) of the sort of choir sounds you mean?

[Teksonik]

Running a bit short on time this morning but I've always liked the Florestan Ahh Choir soundfont;

http://oui.com.br/n/download.php?view.6

It weighs in at a paltry 726kb....(sounds great in Orion's sampler and add a little Concert Hall reverb) ....Also the Papelmedia Choir soundfonts are great but it appears the site is down.....Sampletank has some great Male and Female Ahhhs and Ohhhs choirs none of which are too big and of course the software version of the M-1 has some as well........

[Mark]

I have the ST choirs and the M1. I'll see if I can rustle something up using either the sampler and/or Wavefusion. If it can be done with those then I have no doubt it can be done with DUNE if it gets custom wavetables.

Did you do some choirs for Wusikstation? I remember you having some cracking presets for it. Unfortunately, all my WS data is archived at the moment and doesn't get cracked open too often.