Automation Tracks

[El_Capitan]

I thought Automation was supposed to be in version 8.5 ?

In any case, since it wasn't present, I'd like to see it in the next update to Orion.

These Automation tracks would appear on the playlist, underneath the patterns area for each instrument. I would like to see spline based automation curves in this implementation.

The INSERT effects also would need to have their own automation channels or at least the ability to edit each insert effect's parameters on the automation track(s).

And ALL automation tracks need to be collapsible.

[V/M]

I believe the automation tracks concept was scrapped a long time ago,
so I'd be surprised if there was any talk about it being in 8.5 specifically.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

I thought Automation was supposed to be in version 8.5 ?

It helps to read stuff people post here now and then... or at least do a search
At least that way you'd know when and why ATs were scraped.

In any case, since it wasn't present, I'd like to see it in the next update to Orion.

Highly doubtful that's gonna happen... unless you're willing to wait for another year or two.

These Automation tracks would appear on the playlist, underneath the patterns area for each instrument. I would like to see spline based automation curves in this implementation.

The search on the Beta forum shows the first mention of the spline based event editor was sometime in October 2009, which is the same time the topic about replacing ATs was started, at least conceptually, so it all remained as a discussion about a possibility of a new event editor whether as separate as we have now, or more unified, apart from actually scraping the ATs off the board.
Some of the main concerns were:
1. Backward compatibility
2. Playlist clutter (yes, collapsing them and putting in a Playlist addition (like pattern automation looks like) that would hold ATs were suggested at some point)
3. Mixer/Master and effects events (since they don't show as tracks in playlist)
4. Automation precision
While there's a big demand for better automation system, these were the main show-stoppers for further implementations. Most of the solutions were merely workarounds, not real solutions, and would bring more work later on than, since in the case of backward compatibility, it would be needed to maintain 3 automation systems, instead of 1 or even 2.
So, if you have a good, concrete solid idea how it would/should work, do tell

The INSERT effects also would need to have their own automation channels or at least the ability to edit each insert effect's parameters on the automation track(s).

I'm sure Rich and Marcin would appreciate some elaborated concept of that idea (read previous).

[DaZoid]

I thought Automation was supposed to be in version 8.5 ?

To be honest, I liked the idea in the beginning but I really think that it is overrated. I automate the hell out of my tracks and it works with the recent solution. I still use 7.62.

But what I really would like to see is better tools (maybe implemented in 8.5 already) to edit the curves. The pencil and line and the fact, that if you change automation at a specific point, the automation behind that point changes it you do not have any "stairs" in the automation, need to be improved.

[El_Capitan]

I believe the automation tracks concept was scrapped a long time ago,
so I'd be surprised if there was any talk about it being in 8.5 specifically.

I'm going off of recollection so you may be correct. I do remember a recent beta where they were going back and forth on it... hmmmmmmmmm.

I thought Automation was supposed to be in version 8.5 ?

To be honest, I liked the idea in the beginning but I really think that it is overrated. I automate the hell out of my tracks and it works with the recent solution. I still use 7.62.

But what I really would like to see is better tools (maybe implemented in 8.5 already) to edit the curves. The pencil and line and the fact, that if you change automation at a specific point, the automation behind that point changes it you do not have any "stairs" in the automation, need to be improved.

Wow. 7.62!

The automation in Orion is currently very cludgey imo. It is not direct.. not linear.. One should be able to see it on the playlist since, largely, those events occur within the scope of a song. And while we are sequencing in patterns, the song should not feel like a bunch of cobbled together patterns. Or at least I never want my work to sound so. Thus, the automation lanes should be on the song playlist.

I agree about the tools for drawing too. The smoothing only does so much.. actual spline tools to 'draw' would be super.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Oh, you just reminded me about another issue Rich had concerns about.

What happens to the splines during events recording?

Converse

[El_Capitan]

Oh, you just reminded me about another issue Rich had concerns about.

What happens to the splines during events recording?

Converse

They shouldn't be bound to the pattern itself but that instrument's view on the playlist.

That way you aren't wasting a pattern slot on a specialized spline fade, but still get the spline fade where you want it on the playlist within the song.

[HYPNAGOGIA]

You missed the question.

The current automations work on the PPQ base, meaning its density is determined by it, which even at the lowest setting result in too many points. If splines placed points based on that, you'd just have too many points to allow for easy editing. So, having that in mind, how would a interpolation points for splines be placed during recording?

And you're really not providing a workable solution. Yes, the song automation for Mixer/Master and effects shouldn't be bound to a pattern, but... where to put it then? And don't say on the playlist, because that really doesn't solve anything.

[bones]

One should be able to see it on the playlist since, largely, those events occur within the scope of a song.

How? Would you want to see it on a per-track basis, one line for every automated event or would just one channel at a time be OK? That's the problem, there are too many possible solutions and some people will always want it done a different way.

And while we are sequencing in patterns, the song should not feel like a bunch of cobbled together patterns. Or at least I never want my work to sound so. Thus, the automation lanes should be on the song playlist.

Again, that's you. I think automation is a terrible way to work as it locks you in too much. I use as much modulation as possible and only use automation when no other solution is possible. I always feel like I have failed when I have to use it, other than for things like moving faders on the Mixer. That means that making big changes would be of little or no benefit to me.

I agree about the tools for drawing too. The smoothing only does so much.. actual spline tools to 'draw' would be super.

This is what I've been asking for, for a very long time. Rich seems completely uninterested. There are simple things that could be done that would benefit almost everyone. First would be attaching or linking the Event Editor to the Playlist so that zoom and song position was consistent across both. Then adding a spline tool to the event editor as an extra tool, not as a replacement for any of the existing tools. But even that has problems. e.g. How would Orion know whether to use normal automation or splines? You'd have to make them mutually exclusive, so that once you started using splines on a specific parameter, you would have to stick with it, although it would be great to be able to convert old-style automation to a spline approximation. These tools all exist in even the most basic 3D animation software so it should be reasonably achievable.

[El_Capitan]

One should be able to see it on the playlist since, largely, those events occur within the scope of a song.

How? Would you want to see it on a per-track basis, one line for every automated event or would just one channel at a time be OK? That's the problem, there are too many possible solutions and some people will always want it done a different way.

Both.

It should have the ability to 'export' the pattern's automation onto the playlist automation channel for that instrument under that particular selected pattern(s) as well as having the ability to simply 'draw' the automation on the playlist channel itself.

And while we are sequencing in patterns, the song should not feel like a bunch of cobbled together patterns. Or at least I never want my work to sound so. Thus, the automation lanes should be on the song playlist.

Again, that's you. I think automation is a terrible way to work as it locks you in too much. I use as much modulation as possible and only use automation when no other solution is possible. I always feel like I have failed when I have to use it, other than for things like moving faders on the Mixer. That means that making big changes would be of little or no benefit to me.

I think Modulation alone is shorthanding your ability on seeing the bigger picture in your song. The fades the sweeps the effects ons/offs etc. You can't even do some of that work with modulation.

When the automation is on the playlist though, the actual layout of a song, then it is easy to see where things are occurring.

I agree about the tools for drawing too. The smoothing only does so much.. actual spline tools to 'draw' would be super.

This is what I've been asking for, for a very long time. Rich seems completely uninterested. There are simple things that could be done that would benefit almost everyone. First would be attaching or linking the Event Editor to the Playlist so that zoom and song position was consistent across both. Then adding a spline tool to the event editor as an extra tool, not as a replacement for any of the existing tools. But even that has problems. e.g. How would Orion know whether to use normal automation or splines? You'd have to make them mutually exclusive, so that once you started using splines on a specific parameter, you would have to stick with it, although it would be great to be able to convert old-style automation to a spline approximation. These tools all exist in even the most basic 3D animation software so it should be reasonably achievable.

It is amazing too. The new effects and instruments and such are welcome and needed but the ability to edit and control midi is far more useful imo.

I think Orion is the last major host to be without these type of features... however implemented.

[El_Capitan]

You missed the question.

I'm attempting to avoid you since you only seem interested in shutting down anything suggested.

The current automations work on the PPQ base, meaning its density is determined by it, which even at the lowest setting result in too many points. If splines placed points based on that, you'd just have too many points to allow for easy editing. So, having that in mind, how would a interpolation points for splines be placed during recording?

And you're really not providing a workable solution. Yes, the song automation for Mixer/Master and effects shouldn't be bound to a pattern, but... where to put it then? And don't say on the playlist, because that really doesn't solve anything.

It isn't my job to create the workable solutions, that is Rich's job.

I already answered your question here about where.

I'm throwing out seemingly plausible ideas and it is up to him to take it, modify it, or leave it altogether.

Now what is your job in all of this?

[HYPNAGOGIA]

It isn't my job to create the workable solutions, that is Rich's job.

I already answered your question here about where.

I'm throwing out seemingly plausible ideas and it is up to him to take it, modify it, or leave it altogether.

Now what is your job in all of this?

That really isn't enough. It is the most sought out feature ever requested that everyone want and are eagerly waiting for. It keeps popping out year after year by every possible person here, and still it only remained a discussion so far and nothing more. You really need to do much, much better than just "throwing out". I don't think Richard would consider something that would make things hard for him to maintain or change in the future, or risk the angry mob with things breaking with earlier projects. No one really wants that.

I'm attempting to avoid you since you only seem interested in shutting down anything suggested.

That really isn't my intention, but if that's your impression... whatever
Guess there's no point in having a good discussion trying to better understand all this. But I guess I can grant you the wish so you don't trouble yourself too much.

And to answer about "my job in all of this", at least I did my part by researching things about it during the discussion of possible implementations and presented the images of the spline concepts and how it exactly works for Richard's consideration. Enough?

[V/M]

They shouldn't be bound to the pattern itself but that instrument's view on the playlist.

Sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious that you already know about, but..
you do know about the Event Editor and Song Automation, right?

[HYPNAGOGIA]

He knows, I'm sure. This is more about the Playlist events integration.

[V/M]

it's obvious what the main topic of discussion is.
however, in the way El_Capitan words the description of their problems,
there is a strong suggestion that currently only pattern-level automation exists.