Global PatternsModerators: Christophe, Mark Re: Global PatternsLike I said above I'm willing to beta test the concept on my laptop although I'm not going to break 8.5 on my studio computer. I believe once the concept saw the light of day it's flaws would become obvious and the idea would be dropped like a hot potato...and in the end if the concept is implemented it won't take Orion even one small step forward......
Re: Global Patterns
Please don't mistake my passion for aggression in this case. Even though Bones and I have butted heads for over a decade I still love and respect the grouchy old bastard.....Sometimes I want to choke him out but I don't think the Orion Nation would be the same without him and no one can deny he has contributed a great deal of resources........
Re: Global Patterns
Something we can all agree on And no aggression detected
Re: Global Patterns
If the concept is implemented in some form in a public release it will be because it works. If it doesn't work it will go the same way as other ideas that have failed. So really nothing to worry about afaics.
Re: Global Patterns
No nothing to worry about I just don't want to test a private beta of this concept on my studio computer. I am willing to test on my laptop and I'm man enough to admit I was wrong it that indeed turns out to be the case although I'm pretty sure it will not....I have a feeling the Beta cycle of this concept would be a pretty bumpy ride especially at first and only Rich knows how many lines of code and hours of time it would take....... Ok off to work again...arrggghhh it seems like I'm always there.........
Re: Global Patternswould it be interesting to just keep the whole pattern thing as it is on the generators, no changes needed,
but instead make some changes to the playlist so that you can freely copy patterns between the different generators like is usually done in more traditional sequencers ? that would mean that somehow pattern numbering system gets ignored of course, but only in the playlist... make additional possibility to enable/disable this ? maybe that's an idea ?
Re: Global PatternsI like the idea of having a huge repository of patterns that I've made over the years that is easily and quickly accessible; you never know when one could come back into play and be interesting.
But when it comes down to it; if there is 1 pattern per generator, 1000 patterns per generator, no global patterns, global patterns its not going to stop me making music.
Re: Global PatternsA thought I just had:
How about having the current system stay the same for people who don't want any change, but add the ability to add a pattern into a global pattern bank, use tags to group patterns into a logical structure. Make the global pattern bank work like the VST preset menu (but available on all generators & maybe via the right click menu for the playlist) but with the ability to quickly search through the pattern bank via pattern number, name or pattern tags. The search functional needs to be similar to Google instant search, asynchronous auto complete.
Re: Global Patterns
mmm just do what i do keep them as sfs files 1bar or so amazing when you go back click a song,
Re: Global Patterns
This is now the 4th or 5th time I've asked you or Lance - how do you think this would work and what would the advantages of it be? Dell G7 (Hexa-Core i7)|Cubase Pro 10||Analog Keys|Ultranova|MicroMonsta|Uno|Skulpt|Craft Synth 2.0|
novakill.com
Re: Global PatternsI wonder if the title and popularity of this thread is making it pop up on the sociological radars in google searches yet. It would be rather ironic since the topic has nothing to do with Sociology but our varied geographical locations and the behaviours exhibited in our attempted communication while using the 'new' global networking on the level of the average person in a society such as our here make it 100% relevant to Global Sociological study....
0------Just a thought for those who think like me----------O Now, so I don't become guilty of derailment.....here's a suggestion brought to you by the Association of Peaceful Relations Between Water Foul and Their Gun Toting Mammalian Overlords Perhaps a simple menu option of - Insert Generator Pattern: It would simply employ side menus of 'Select Generator' and 'Select from Avaliable Patterns' To simplify things only generators and patterns that have information in them would be listed so that all options do not crowd up the screen. Then have an options thingy pop up and there you select if automation and velocities etc will be making the migration along with the simple patterns. We can simplify things easier to selecting only the Generator and the options menu will be able to allow you to pick multiple patterns instead of all or one. Sorry if this has already been suggested but I haven't been following too closely since that Duck showed up and made such a splash... I've been chasing that Daffy bastard ever since. I can't believe Krim would drop the ball and just let him get away like that! Good thing I'm in Samurai Mode!
Re: Global Patterns
I don't think it would work and neither does Rich. I was just trying to make some compromise so that Global Patterns don't destroy Orion's workflow.....I think it would be just as much of a mess as Global Patterns alone.....
Re: Global PatternsSo you are suggesting something you don't think is a workable idea? One of your key points was that global patterns would be a waste of dev time but you're happy to suggest something else that even you think is a waste of time. Do you expect that to improve your credibility?
This seems to be making life more complex again, not easier. Digging into menus can be a PITA. Some simple structure could be handy but making it too complex and forcing people to go into it too often is just robbing Peter to pay Paul, I think. It might keep the Luddites happy but it wouldn't necessarily make things easier for the rest of us.
No, because that would only work in Song Mode and I am most interested in making things easier in Pattern Mode. Once you know how things are going to shake out in the arrangement, it is easy to copy/paste stuff around to make it happen. I'm much more interested in being able to quickly and easily try out different ideas in Pattern Mode, before I start thinking about the Playlist. It would also be a horrible mess in the Playlist as you could have a situation where an instrument could have several different patterns all labelled A1 and no way of knowing where each originally came from. Maybe patterns could keep the colour-coding from the original generator but that could make the Playlist a lot harder to use than it is now, if there were different colours all over the place. You'd also be placing those patterns in the Playlist without knowing how they are going to sound.
You may as well just copy/paste from one instrument to the other. No-one would use it as it would make things harder, not easier. Dell G7 (Hexa-Core i7)|Cubase Pro 10||Analog Keys|Ultranova|MicroMonsta|Uno|Skulpt|Craft Synth 2.0|
novakill.com
Re: Global Patterns
Why? I keep asking you and Lance and all I get is this rubbish. Give me some cogent reasons, nothing you've said so far makes me think there will be any issues at all.
Lucky you didn't because in the face of about 10 pages of explanation now, you'd look pretty stupid.
I've answered every single question and addressed every single point as comprehensively as I possibly can. I've spent at least 4 hours a day, every day this week, trying to explain things and answer questions. No-one has ever put this much into any feature request, here or anywhere else.
There is no "patterns per generator" workflow, it is simply a feature of Orion's pattern-based workflow that confuses many new users and can be restrictive for all of us. You've just learned to live with it over the years, as have we all. That doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. Even when I suggested an implementation that would leave things exactly as they are now, you still couldn't see any merit in it. The problem is not with global patterns, it is in your head.
Again, this should be your first clue that you are on the wrong track with your understanding of the idea.
Why? It is far less flexible, you're just used to all the restrictions it brings. Copy/paste removes automation, so you will always have to recreate that manually, and "Receive MIDI from..." takes over everything when you might want to use some patterns from the original instrument and some from the other. If anything, using these methods just shows how restrictive the current system is as they all have severe limitations that someone coming from another host application or hardware sequencer would see as ludicrous. And the advantages of the current system over this proposal is practically nothing at all, it just happens to be what you are used to, rather than what is best.
That's because it wouldn't change anything significantly and you have not been able to show that it might. e.g. If the first pattern you want to use on the 4th instrument you've added happens to be B4, for example, you have to navigate to it by one of the 4 methods available. You like to click-drag, I usually use my scroll wheel, but in this situation either clicking and selecting from the pop-up or typing "b" and "4" is probably more efficient. With global patterns you would select that pattern in exactly the same way. Yes, the first pattern might require more scrolling or a longer drag but, assuming you aren't randomly creating patterns all over the place, all the other patterns you need for that instrument are likely to be near the first one and will just require the same small drags or scrolls as they do now. I'll give you an example of how I would work, assuming that no organisational tools at all were implemented. i.e. That every generator is inserted, ready to play Pattern 000 (also assuming that a 3-digit naming convention would be employed). We usually need just two banks, A & B, for drums and almost never use more than 8 patterns anywhere else. So, in my head, I'd decide that I'll always put drum patterns into the first 20 patterns, 000-019. Then for each new instrument, I'd move up 10 patterns. That would keep everything nice and compact. I always have drums as the first generator so I add a DrumRack and create a basic kick/snare pattern exactly as I would now. Then I add an instrument, lets say a Wasp. Now, I want to reserve the first 20 patterns for drums, so I press the FF button twice to take me to pattern 020 or click and select it from the list. Either way, it's just two mouse clicks. Now I am ready to start playing around with ideas. When I get something working, I'll want to add another instrument, lets say a Screamer, to expand on it or because I realise that Wasp is not the best synth to work with the idea I've come up with. Whichever it is, 9 times out of 10 the first pattern I will want Screamer to play is one that I've already made for Wasp. Let's say that its pattern 023, just for the sake of argument. To get my new instrument to pattern 023, I just click and select it from a list, the same list you see now when you click on a pattern in the playlist. It's simple and it's done, again with just two clicks and I'm able to play a pattern that I created in Wasp without having to copy/paste or anything else. It just works. I can keep adding instruments and clicking my mouse twice to select patterns all day. The sky doesn't fall in, my computer doesn't spontaneously burst into flames, I just get on with what I'm doing in the simple and efficient manner that is the hallmark of Orion's workflow. No copy/paste, no Cloning, no Merging, no Receiving MIDI from somewhere else, just creating patterns wherever I like and using them wherever I need to. And that's WITHOUT any extra tools to help me organise things. Any number of things could be added to make organisation easier, like auto-naming patterns or auto-creating folders or automatically inserting instruments with an empty pattern ready to go. Any of these things would make life easier but even without them, the system would be incredibly easy to use, easier than the current system by far. OK, so that's Pattern Mode, what about Song Mode and arrangements? Here nothing at all will change, you will continue to add patterns just as you always have. In fact, there is a tool that was in Orion for ages that would be very useful here. It was removed in favour of full-screen mode but F11 used to add all the current patterns to the Playlist. That would be very handy for quickly getting each channel to the first pattern. Maybe that tool just got moved to a new shortcut but, if not, it would be good to get it back (I'm surprised no-one has bitched about it being gone). Even without it, adding patterns to the Playlist would be the same as it is now. The smart thing would probably be to start beta testing it without any organisational tools and work out exactly where issues arise and how best to deal with them. After all, I understand that a lot of you use many more patterns than I do (my band-mate sure as hell does) so what is not an issue for me could easily be a nightmare for others, but there are plenty of options for dealing with it.
That is a massive change to everything and would require 10 times the development effort. It would also be clunky and unintuitive. e.g. It would give new users the idea that they can D'n'D a Wasp preset onto Wavefusion or a MIDI file into an Audio Track. That's what I hate about D'n'D, it is completely unintuitive. It would be a huge mess that would require more exclusions than inclusions. OTOH, global patterns is a simple, achievable idea that would improve Orion for absolutely everyone (even you, Lance).
I wouldn't worry too much about it. We've got a song with an Automation Track in it which still opens just fine in the current release version. Rich is pretty good at looking after our hard work. Dell G7 (Hexa-Core i7)|Cubase Pro 10||Analog Keys|Ultranova|MicroMonsta|Uno|Skulpt|Craft Synth 2.0|
novakill.com
Re: Global Patterns
Boy you're really reaching there Bones..that's the best you can do? I said might be a compromise...you know in an effort to maybe satisfy both sides....no actually you wouldn't know about compromise what was I thinking? In observing this and other recent threads.... a dozen Orion users even bothering to weigh in on the idea and the same number in the open Wish List 2012 thread......I'm not sure if it's even worth Rich's time to add anything else to Orion. Call it done and go on with making great high end synths....you can feel the passion and excitement when he posts about his instruments.....you can feel the apathy towards Orion in this and recent threads and I can see his point....then where is Marcin? Not a peep from him. No one's even said there will be an Orion version 9 or beyond....... Sorry but it's been a long hard day and I grow weary with this subject as it's just become a stalemate....Orion works well for me right now with the recent additions from 7.6 to 8.5 and the main reason is because of it's Pattern Per Generator workflow. If I want a helter skelter workflow I can always use Fruity.....
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