D U N E user waveforms

[Mark]

The CZ series have DCOs, which AFAIU are analogue oscillators that are digitally controlled to prevent the tuning issues of VCOs.

[Mark]

Just because someone else has sampled and redistributed D50 samples doesn't make it right

I never said it was right. It simply didn't dawn on me in this case....I've been around samplers since the early Mirage days and to my knowledge haven't sampled anything that is copyrighted.....

And I wasn't making a dig at you, just making the point for general attention.

[Teksonik]

Now we're splitting hairs..........

"The CZ-101 and CZ-1000 had only eight digital oscillators. For patches using one oscillator per voice, this allowed 8-note polyphony, but if two oscillators per voice were used, this restricted polyphony to four voices. The CZ-3000, CZ-5000, and CZ-1 had sixteen digital oscillators, making them sixteen- or eight-voice synthesizers.

"Internally the CZ digitally generates a compressed waveform that is expanded in the analogue domain, a process known as compansion, which allows the 12 bit DAC to produce the theoretical equivalent of 14 bits"

[jammie1]

cz are not analog they are pure digital as its pd synthesis which is the same as yams usage but they call it fm

by adding osc modulators to change the phase of the carrier over time you can create loads of overtones which are added additively creating complex waveforms and becuase of the 8 way envelopes have lots of control over this

[Teksonik]

Just because someone else has sampled and redistributed D50 samples doesn't make it right

I never said it was right. It simply didn't dawn on me in this case....I've been around samplers since the early Mirage days and to my knowledge haven't sampled anything that is copyrighted.....

And I wasn't making a dig at you, just making the point for general attention.

No problem, no offense taken. I just wanted to let you know I don't condone illegal sampling but sometimes I guess it's easy to forget where the line of the law is drawn......especially for older instruments......

[Mark]

Now we're splitting hairs..........

"The CZ-101 and CZ-1000 had only eight digital oscillators. For patches using one oscillator per voice, this allowed 8-note polyphony, but if two oscillators per voice were used, this restricted polyphony to four voices. The CZ-3000, CZ-5000, and CZ-1 had sixteen digital oscillators, making them sixteen- or eight-voice synthesizers.

"Internally the CZ digitally generates a compressed waveform that is expanded in the analogue domain, a process known as compansion, which allows the 12 bit DAC to produce the theoretical equivalent of 14 bits"

I'm not splitting hairs, that's why I said "The CZ series have DCOs, which AFAIU are analogue oscillators that are digitally controlled to prevent the tuning issues of VCOs." It's not clear to me whether we are talking samples here with the CZ.

If I'm wrong then I hold my hand up and accept it and Kriminal should take down his links (or I'll do it for him).

[Mark]

cz are not analog they are pure digital as its pd synthesis which is the same as yams usage but they call it fm

by adding osc modulators to change the phase of the carrier over time you can create loads of overtones which are added additively creating complex waveforms and becuase of the 8 way envelopes have lots of control over this

I understand how the CZ synths work, but what you've written doesn't preclude the analogue domain being involved. Yamaha called it FM to avoid infringement of Casio's patent, but I'm sure you know that.

[Mark]

It's not clear (to me) whether or not the CZ series uses a look up table for its waveforms, i.e. a sample, or if they are driven by electronic circuits. If it's the former then you can't use the samples, but if it is the latter then you can. If someone can supply information on that then that would be super. It's something I was never able to find out despite searching for it.

[Mark]

BTW jammie, the waveforms in DUNE (which is what this thread was originally about) are 2048 samples long. SO, if DUNE does ever get user waveforms, you might want to take that in to consideration, whilst you're generating waveforms anyway

[Teksonik]

Well anyway legal drama aside and back to the original thread topic I'd still rather see Dune get .sfz support over single cycle wav import but that may not be the direction that Dune should go.....

[jammie1]

actually yam called it fm becuase of chownings book where they got the ideas from but its not true fm but phase distortion synthesis

casio called it pd becuase it was pd but yamaha sued them over it as it used the same principles of there design thats why casio left the professional scene which was a shame as they brought out the first 16bit sampler and the first digital controled analog filter which has a nice grunch to it

you get people saying its not a moog filter but thank god its not other wise it would sound like a moog

its pure digital theres no digital controlled analog osc they are pure digital controlled osc

they always should make that clear with the analog digital control osc as people get mixed up

matrix 6 /100 juno jx3p jx8p jx10 and all the same derivitive are true digital controled analog osc

becuase its derived from mathmatics its been adapted in vst form and dsp

the kawia series used additive synthesis to generate most of there waveforms and all supply you with the spectra for them in the manual

waldorf also includes the library in additive spectra so that you can create them in an additive engine

and user waves are created with additive engine

the thing with cz is there ability to morph from 1 wave set to another with the envelope that makes it sound analog like your setting an envelope to a fitler cutoff

as for eric persing he has the d50 set in omnisphere and was one of the sampler designers of the d50 and did lots of the factory patches he also did lots of factory rom boards samples for roland using the sxxx samplers that are identical in structure to the d50

which they stole the idea from the prophet vs as they added vector mixing and the 4 osc like the prophet vs

the wavestaion and the sy22/33/35 were produced by the sequencial workers that yamaha brought and split up with the 2 yamaha companies yamaha and korg

and they both use each other parts most korg keyboards are yamaha the korg ds8 is a 4op fm chip as used in the tx81z and other 4op yams

the t1 uses the aftertouch circuit of the sy99

[Mark]

Given that the wavetable in DUNE contains 70 waveforms and works similarly to WaveFusion, I think it more likely that wave import would be along the lines of what we have with WaveFusion but without the text files.

[Mark]

Jammie1, that's all interesting stuff, a lot of which I didn't know. I thought Chowning actually worked with Yamaha directly on the DX series? Also, he was disappointed that they didn't even use half of what was possible from his research. AFAIU, that's still the case - that FM/PD in its original form is heavily under-farmed.

[jammie1]

true fm can only be done with modular synths as they can be modulated by audio rate modulators of any source and dont suffer aliasing like digital systems as its all volage signals

and chowning wrote the book then yamaha contacted him and he worked with them but they did not impliment half of what it can do

it might of been down to the processors at the time not being fast enough

but true fm can be additive pd true am /ringmodulation which a lot of people mistake for am but it is sum and difference

where as true am is transient source modulation take any audio and modulate the carreir by it be it drum string or what ever this makes realy creative sounds the esq1 and sq80 had this form of am and it had a bug and would create alsorts of wonderful sounds

the sy99 went a lot further with it as you can set the ops how you like want feed back on each op no problem and audio rate fm from samples

the fs1r went a long way and implimenting a formant filter the idea the stole from kawai was good but the 8 ops and small screen let it down

my favourite fm synth to program is the ds8 as it had faders for the most importent parts of the fm engine soit make it tweekable in real time unlike the dx range with thee only sysex dump and not sysex control

fm got let down by being so mathematical control rather than an instrument control for musicians

and so patches were created by dedicated people who could program it so the patch money making companies came along

what im starting to hate about electronics today is smaller smaller smaller you can se whats on the screen and you have to go through loads of menu screens and new products comming out and they are no different to the sh101 or mc202

just made for a new generation of kids that dont know of the products of yesteryear no new ideas

every manufacturer is making the same instrumentsd with new sample sets

ex korg kronos is an oasis but with new keyboard case but its an oasis rebadged

roland jv880 then jv1080 the 2080 xv5080 all the same synth but better poly same rom boards some with the rom of the expanders of the old machine

waldorf every synth the same uwave is a 1/2/xt blofeld is the same

now i like the ultran as that is a new take on things and does great wavetable type synthesis but with samples

sound alot like the emu morpheus i know its been around for a while but im a hardware nut and only use vsti for sound pallete

as hardware samplers are on and you dont need a mouse and they sound great in mixes unlike vsti that sound very tin can

like the sound is hiding at terh back of the speaker do a bass on a modular and it wants to rip your chest out

and all this wobble basslines i have been doing that with the asr10 for 15+ years i did a load of drum and bass tracks in 95

and did that rip rawing bass and chopped up mad glitch beats and when palying ithe dj i did the tunes with we were like yeah this wicked

but we had so much negitivity about it and people saying it would never take of and now the last few years thats all you hear

we only did it for that 1 ep dub plate and left it on dat

[Mark]

One of the best bits about Dune is the ability to do FM and AM/RM with wavetables in a very simple fashion. Or not so simple, if you want