Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueModerators: Christophe, Mark
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Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueHi,
this issue existed already but it got better than it was before (Orion 8.02). One annoying problem still exist:(see example picture) Base Example: Two longer chords and three Loop settings. Example Loop 1: If you have the Loop beginning before the chord and ends in the middle of the first chord, the rest of the long notes still play even if the Loop turns back to the start point (where are no notes). The sustained notes won't stopped and playing to the end. Example Loop 2: When on the other hand the Loop runs from the middle of the first chord to the middle of the second chord, the second chord wi still be played even if the Loop turns back to middle of the first chord. The second chord will now be played to its end and the first chord will not be played from the middle position were the Loop starts, so you will hear always the second chord instead of from middle first to middle second chord. Example Loop 3:(Picture) The Loop starts in the middle of the first chord and ends beyond the second chord. In this case the first chord wont be played. This problem also existed in Cubase SX3 but was solved from Cubase 4 on. There must exist a little programmer trick to stop sutained notes at the end of a Loop and to play sustained long notes from the middle or where the Loop starts. I hope the issue became clear, so that it can be solved. As far I remember right it must have something to do with a prelistening function, like in some Compressors, to look foreward and recognize were a Loop ends and cut the notes at this point and the same principle with the starting Loop point to start note playback even if its anywere within a long note (or notes). You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueIf I understand you correctly,his is all to do with MIDI. Each MIDI note consists of a note on and a note off event (amongst other events including velocity etc.).
In the first case, the note on events have been received by Orion, but the note Off evnts haven't been sent , so the notes continue to play. In the second and third cases, the loop starts after the note on events for that particular chord, so nothing happens until the note on events of the second chord are received. The note off events of the first chord do nothing here, because, as far as Orion is aware, there are no notes to turn off. Similarly, in the second case, there are no note offs received for the second chord so it continues. In the third case, the note offs are received so the second chord will stop appropriately.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueThat sounds like the biz, Mark.
I think the solution to this is render that chord seq out and put the audio there. The loop will play ok from any point in the audio, unlike the midi. Leave the generator avail in case tweaks are required at some point. cheers ---=u f o=--- /Radiation Mutant / Snee-Nee-Iq
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
Hi Mark, it refers to MIDI notes. The problem here is that the Playlist-Loop should stop all note-on messages at the end of the Loop and should start all notes at the Loop-Startpoint even if its in the middle of a longer chord or singe note. But this is currently not the case. Everyone can reproduce this easily by playing and recording two longer chords and then setting different Loops like in the examples I gave. I hope this helps a bit.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueI believe I'm experiencing the same bug in 8.5 beta
I have a pattern 4 blocks/bars long on the playlist. I skip to block 6 and start playback and the pattern in blocks 1-4 still sound! There is obviously no overlap of notes. It seems like a buffer or location problem with Orion not realizing it is far beyond where it thinks it is.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issuehad this issue in the in internal beta versions, but its not easy to reproduce. sometimes you will hear ghost audio from patters that will appear 4 blocks down the playlist.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
Interesting. I see that if I allow the song to play completely through on it's own that this issue does not occur. However, when I fast forward to block 5 or 6 for instance then I experience this issue. Maybe this is different from the above issues? hmmmm
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueIt's not a bug, nor is it an issue. It's due to the inherent structure of MIDI messages. Maybe Rich can code something in to deal with/overcome it, but I don't think it should be a high priority (for me anyway). Others might think differently
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
Hi El_Capitan, the same problem existed years age in Cubase SX 3, but was solved from Cubase 4 on. If this an issue of the handling of MIDI with the Playlist-Loop feature don't stopping or starting MIDI-Notes at the end or beginning of a loop or if its a buffer issue has to find out the programmer. Professional Sequencer hosts don't have this problem anymore and this is important for correct sequencing and composing. I don't know what other people do, but I am composing in various ways and use the Playlist-Loop often.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
This type of response disappoints me. Well that is fantastic that you feel it should be swept under the rug. However, some of us are experiencing this issue and hope it is acknowledged and resolved (in that order). As you're a representative of Synapse Audio I find it disturbing you'd essentially say 'not a big deal.. maybe something can be done.. maybe not.. but you should move on.' By the way, this issue was not apparent in previous versions. I've been loyally using this product for at least 10 years. How did it not occur in the past? Logic would seem to indicate if this issue (oh sorry, you told me it is not an issue.. right) if this.. situation.. is 'due to the inherent structure of MIDI messages' then one could find this issue (err situation) in previous versions of Orion from 1.0 onward. Perhaps I've been lucky and in the 500+ song files I've created in Orion in this time that I have never experienced or noticed it. But I highly doubt that. I work in the playlist so this is an essential functionality that I require and was present in the past. There is an obvious issue with the playlist, however minor you consider it. I can recreate it. Surely you can agree that it is an issue one way or the other and thus needs to be resolved. Perhaps it is a soundcard driver issue.. perhaps it is a settings misconfiguration... perhaps it is a glitch in Orion.. either way, Mark, I would hope you'd take these posts a little more seriously and not initially downplay them. At this point, I'm stuck. You're telling me it is no big deal. That tells me there is not much that is going to be done. Therefore, I need to either live with a broken Orion or go back to v8 until a later, unknown, version is released where this issue is resolved (could be 8.6 or 12.5!). Judging from your (official company) response.. I shouldn't expect much huh?
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
Good thing to point out is that those "professional" sequencers are clip-based (Cubase/Nuendo and Acid, at least) compared to Orion. Orion is truly pattern based (like FLS, I think), so you can't compare it to other sequencers like that. And I'm curious what exactly makes those sequencers "professional" and other not.
I think you need to get your facts straight
It did happen in the past too, at least the notes triggering. I can't say for sure about the note-off thing. Orion, in its pattern-based way of dealing with MIDI messages, isn't capable to detect notes being played from the middle. It never could, and by the look of things, it might never will. Even patterns with short notes that are mid-played have decent chance of not being played, as Merlin's image up this thread illustrates. It is not a loop only issue, it's playlist issue. You can have loop off and try to play pattern with long notes from the middle of it - it won't play. Why? Because the whole pattern isn't triggered. That's another concept that I think needs explaining. Orion's playlist reading of information presented to it is rather linear - it reads from start to finish. With that said, it will play perfectly fine, since each pattern, and note within it, will be triggered and played through from start to finish. If you skip parts of its reading, it will miss to trigger patterns and notes, so they won't be played. I think that's easy enough concept to understand. Currently, there's no direct way around it, I'm afraid, and even though it has been acknowledged by the devs, addressing it isn't that easy. Richard had thoughts to change the playlist to clip-based, but as it seemed, that raised more concerns (backward compatibility with pre-v8 projects - most likely to be dropped in that case, storing of pattern events, etc) than solutions and it was dropped, or at least put on hold. We don't know. It's not currently known to us what his thought about this is right now. The only immediate solution I can think of right now is to set the loop so that it contains pattern beginnings, or break long patterns down so that it becomes possible. As for the notes not being stopped, only Suneel of the beta testers that I can remember experienced it. I think none of the rest of us could reproduce it. And, again, you need to get your facts straight. Mark, or any other beta tester, is in no way a representative of Synapse Audio SoundCloud ::: Facebook
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issueMerlin can you post an .sfs file using Orion's built in generators showing this issue in action? I'd like to test it out..........
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
The facts are straight.
I've never seen it or heard it. I've used the playlist to loop and restart in the middle of frequently when writing songs. I've never heard Orion exhibit this behavior. There has always been the issue of Orion not picking up the currently playing notes if they had already started. There, however, has not been the issue of Orion playing notes that have long since passed in the timeline. I don't know why you are answering for Mark, since I assume he is a big boy and can respond for himself, I do see he has 'Moderator' as his title on an official company forum. Therefore, paid or not he is a forward face for Synapse Audio. Esp when he is responding to such issues in the manner he is. I suppose I have snapped in the above comments to Mark. This is a result of being tired of seeing bugs and features listed here and them either not responded to them being downplayed. It is frustrating. There is a problem. Even if it is difficult to resolve, just an acknowledgment that it is or could be an issue and it is being added to the queue of things to be looked at would have been GREAT... instead of downplaying and telling people no big deal. it is a big deal. Otherwise I wouldn't have took the time to report it.
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issue
Regarding Mark's status, sorry, they're not.
Like I've said previously, I haven't heard of notes playing beyond the extension of the pattern, unless it's a long release, so that is odd, but the notes not playing from the middle of the pattern is very often occurance... not so much in sequences as much as in long notes, like those played for pads/strings.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize forum discussions are between two people only. I wasn't answering for Mark, he's quite capable of doing that himself, and his opinions are his alone. I was, however, answering to you about the known issues of this discussion. Even though Mark is a moderator here, he is not paid, nor employed by Synapse Audio. His only obligations as moderator is to keep things in check on the forums. That's it. The only face of the company is Richard. I don't think even Marcin, who is a secondary developer, can speak in that name. So, I really don't think your facts are straight about that.
I understand your frustrations completely, but you have to understand that people do and always will have opinions of their own. What might be the most important thing in the world for you, might be completely irrelevant to them. Don't let that get you too much. I can't tell you if the issues are being addressed, or even acknowledged, because quite frankly, none of us really know. Sometimes there's no official comment on some particular issue, and all of a sudden there's a fix for it in the next beta we get to test. What I've said before is an opinion and perhaps a bit of insight of what has been discussed before about playlist changes. Please understand that it's been long time since those discussions took place at the beta forum. That was even before DUNE development started, if I recall. From what I understood there, changing playlist to clip-based was a main contender as a suitable system, with some major drawbacks. I don't know how many people here would like their old projects not working because of the lack of pattern system and pattern events (clip automation was option then too, to accompany the new system). Like I said, it's been long time, and I could be wrong by misunderstanding all that's been said back then. SoundCloud ::: Facebook
Re: Orion 8.5 Playlist-Loop Playback issuei think mark was replying to merlins problem and not the ghost audio problem i mentioned. in my case the pattern doesn't even start untill 4 blocks down, so the midi note isnt triggered. You can hear the audio from blocks down the timeline. this happens only for 2-3 seconds before it synchs correctly. i can only speculate it is something to do with the asio buffer read-ahead where it by mistakes reads buffered cached streams earlier. and as i said earlier it doesn't always happen, but its there since version8.
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