playlist folders

[Marcin]

'From the Cubase 5 manual...' - isn't that like a senator reading from the communist manifesto as an amendment to the constitution on Capitol Hill? Seen this go down in Tianemen Square... Lead them on and let the statue go up, and then tell them all to go home.

My best advice, move to Hong Kong now.

Bah... I thought it was a clear definition of folder tracks, that�s all.

True. Orion schouldn't have same tracks folders. Just groups

[bones]

They are really just different names for the same thing. Folders is just a really poor name.

@Krim - look at used height of first example and second, just it

Look at the info conveyed by the first and the complete lack of info in the second.
Rich has already asked for ideas on how to organise ATs but I don't think this idea has much merit. O really don't see why you'd do something like the first image example, it seems pointless. Using something a little bit like that to hide ATs makes sense but not for multiple normal tracks.

Furthermore - You can mute or unmute whole group at once (ups sorry, record button schouldn't be on groups on my examples).

That's what busses are for. Doing that in the Playlist would be a whole lot of extra coding, methinks.

the Tomcats example is a very good one

just one more reason never to use Tomcat. I sure as hell never have.

Folers have to be implemented anyway. You just can't mix dozens of ATs with dozens of generators. It's a bloody mess noone is able to handle anymore. With a huge project, you might end up with 30, 40 thingies on the Playlist. Rich already saw this point and I think he is thinking about something like a group function.

Which is precisely why ATs suck. They aren't even released yet and already we are having to find workarounds to address their shortcomings.

But I think Groups in Playlist would really help to better Organize work with Playlist.

You should be able to organise your own work, rather than just keep throwing stuff at a project until it becomes unmanageable.

[Eklectro]

Thx again to Bones who gives his advice.
I didn"t expected that it would have been a so polemic issue.

Of course it is not the priority in ORION.
But you cannot say it is useless.

Your projects don't exceed 5 tracks. Thats nice.
Mines do.

I also think that Steinberg had just too much developpers and extra time to code useless feathures.

Personally I do not use busses anymore since I mix my projects once on separate wave files.

In my projects, the playlist is always on one screen, thats why it is really convenient, compared to the master or the mixer (or others synths, fx's) who are on the second small screen.

We all have a different way to work and that why there is no one answer to this question by yes or no. It is subjective.

BTW I'm not a programmer, but I don't think that this is a lot a work comparing to code new fx's or synths.

In my personnal case, I use Orion for it's relevant song playlist and pattern mode mainly. So this feathure is in MY wishlist.

Thx to Intro One for illustrating what I meant.
(edit : folder or groups : whatever, I'm french :^p )

[bones]

My tracks are fucking organised. I make decisions about what needs to be there and what is just making it harder to do a good job. The number of tracks I use is a reflection of how much time and effort goes into both planning an execution.
The fact that we have a much bigger sound than any of you with a fraction of the number of tracks should tell you that the way we work is superior. If we were doing weedy, little songs with nothing going on, your point might be valid but we don't, we blow all your stuff into the weeds without ever running into the kinds of problems you are constantly whining about.
Justify it however you like but, at the end of the day, the simple, inescapable fact is that we work smarter and better than you. You can get the shits and ignore my advice, it's no skin off my nose, and continue to bash your head against brick walls if you want or you can take some advice and not have these problems in the first place.
The big issue I see with most is that you insist on working a certain way, whether it suits what you're trying to achieve or not. That possibly comes from not having clear goals at any point in the process. i.e. You start off and just keep throwing things into the mix until you're done. We work very differently. We split things into multiple parts. The creative process is often very, very messy and, like you, we don;t like to be restricted, so we do just throw things at the project until we're happy. Production is largely irrelevant at this point, we just want to get ideas happening.
Once we have the ideas saved, production starts as a separate process. That's when we make decisions about what is necessary and what is not. We are ruthless, nothing stays that isn't helping the song. Sometimes that even means that the hook or rhythm or whatever that inspired the piece in the first place gets cut [although that is rare]. You cannot be precious about anything. That's why bands use producers, to sort the wheat from the chaff from a neutral perspective, to take only what the song needs to be as good as it can be. For us that often means that half the things we started with are discarded and other things are combined. e.g. two basslines being played by different instruments are combined into just one, by copying and pasting patterns. Very often changes like this make the song sound subjectively worse than it did before but if it makes it easier to get a good mix, it is a worthwhile sacrifice in the long run [sacrifice being different to compromise].
The idea that you can do whatever you like is ridiculous. It is how a 4 year-old thinks. No matter how much of this stuff is implemented, it will always lead to the next limitation, then the one after that. Ultimately there will always be insurmountable limitations that will limit what you can do. What it shouldn't limit is what you can achieve. It is simply a matter of focusing on the result and doing what is necessary to achieve it. We all do it all the time. Stereo, for example, is a limitation but we all live with it. The resolution of your screen is a limitation but we all work within it. You just need to treat other limitations in the same way.

[Eklectro]

Limitation was one point.
As you said when I start a project I don't know where I gonna lead and my best projects are the simplest ones.
I often delete many synths at the end. But then there is still this construction phase which take all the time. and that's why group could be to ME (and maybe others) an idea, not the best one, to encrease the workflow.
Also I'm really sorry, but I cannot admit that because you are experienced, your technic is the best one existing.
Maybe you can admit that among all the styles of music, there are maybe diffrent structure and parts that compose the track...
I understood already that because of your self satisfaction you reject most of ideas if they are diffrent from yours.

I'm not here to make more troubles with a veteran on his battlefield.
Note also that's it's might not be really usefull to answer to me, cause I'm just a 24 year old student, not a musician, close to be mechanical engineer...

"We split things into multiple parts. The creative process is often very, very messy and, like you, .....

...subjectively worse than it did before but if it makes it easier to get a good mix, it is a worthwhile sacrifice in the long run [sacrifice being different to compromise]."
That was the interresting part of your post. Thx foe this tip.
Ek

[DMuzik]

How one can be AGAINST folder tracks/groups I don´t understand. You wouldn´t need to use them would you? With AT:s on the horizon and looking at Richards screen dumps of the playlist I´d say that IMHO folders should be a top priority. Maybe not for v8 cause I´d rather it be out sooner than later... but how about in v8.1?

[V/M]

How one can be AGAINST folder tracks/groups I don´t understand. You wouldn´t need to use them would you?

Everything has to work together in some way, it's all part of the same application. The more pieces and features you have, the more areas you have that things go wrong, and more things that need to be maintained. Having stuff around that you don't need or use IS an issue.

[Kriminal]

The fact that we have a much bigger sound than any of you with a fraction of the number of tracks should tell you that the way we work is superior.

now thats funny :biglol:

[downi]

it isn't!

[DMuzik]

How one can be AGAINST folder tracks/groups I don´t understand. You wouldn´t need to use them would you?

Everything has to work together in some way, it's all part of the same application. The more pieces and features you have, the more areas you have that things go wrong, and more things that need to be maintained. Having stuff around that you don't need or use IS an issue.

Why is it that this is the only forum I visit where there's so much fear of new and improved features? I would understand it if a new feature totally changed the workflow of Orion, but I'm confident Rich would never implement such a thing. And if you're happy with Orion as it is and if you're that worried about progress and what kind of problems it may bring I suggest not to upgrade and stay on the version you're happy with. Then you don't have to spend time in the wishlist forum and worry about what people would like to see in Orion.

If Rich has a commercial interest in Orion, and is not only developing it for himself, then there is bound to be new features and improvements... that's just the way it is.

[DMuzik]

Oh, and the above was not specifically aimed at you V/M... it's just the general feeling I get in this place.

[V/M]

Oh, and the above was not specifically aimed at you V/M... it's just the general feeling I get in this place.

especially since I'm in favor of folders or groups.

[Kriminal]

it amazes me that no-one mentioned it 10 years ago if its so popular...?

[Marcin]

it amazes me that no-one mentioned it 10 years ago if its so popular...?

10 years ago there were no Automation Tracks

[DMuzik]

Oh, and the above was not specifically aimed at you V/M... it's just the general feeling I get in this place.

especially since I'm in favor of folders or groups.

:daumen: