Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsModerators: Christophe, Mark Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sendsoh my....... that must be the most offensive thing I've ever heard in my life, how could you?!?!
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
what are those is there a mockup or larger explenation on this forum for this? Did You Know you can download my albums on 1albums.com and you can promote your own there to
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsCrimson, I think at this point it's better to just concentrate on learning and getting the most out of Reaper. It's what I am doing at the moment. Richard has a certain vision for Orion and if it doesn't suit your workflow(it certainly doesn't look like it) it's just a prudent move to switch hosts. Reaper is freaking awesome and has a lightning fast development rate(Justin is a multimillionaire, so he can afford to concentrate on it full time). I'll continue using Orion as a scratchpad for my ideas but if I want to make something serious I'll render and continue in Reaper.
Last edited by funky koval on Fri May 14, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsWhere were you like 4 pages ago Funky. That's the reasoning that I hope should stick. Lets just see if Bone's little bird can crack the nut first. If it gets a bigger beak and more plumage over time, that's evolution. If Reaper is already the 'intelligent design' that works for many, it's us staunch Darwinists loss I suppose. Yet the two will always coexist in close proximity. Be it God's way or Vegas odds.
Last edited by Dungeon Studio on Sat May 15, 2010 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
Wait a fucking minute!! I'm the guy who started this thread, with a well thought-out solution to a set of issues that I don't even have. For half of it, you agreed wholeheartedly, then you sort of half changed your mind and started pushing for something else. Track Folders are not a bad idea, they simply don't address all the issues that a Sub-Mixer would. Most crucially, they use the same sends as everything else, so you don't get any extra sends, which means it is not a complete solution and other work would have to be done to make them work as well as a Sub-Mixer.
Nothing, just as you should have no problem when it is pointed out to you that Track Folders do not address all the issues. As for Reaper, I see it more as something I would use instead of Cool Edit, not Orion. The focus is completely different.
You could have said exactly the same thing about EnergyXT a few years ago and look where that has gone since. OTOH, Orion has been around for a long time, steadily improving but not losing it's focus. It has a proven track record that far outweighs the uncertainty of a newer product that is largely just possibilities.
No-one is saying they are a bad idea [maybe DS is but I've not been reading his posts], they are just not as good an idea as a Sub-Mixer, for the reason mentioned. Another advantage for me is that a Sub-Mixer would be in it's own window, making it easier to organise everything in a way that keeps it all accessible. The main Mixer window already dominates the UI. I see an advantage is moving some stuff out of that window and into another, rather than piling on the misery in that one window. It may add extra windows but with that comes increased flexibility. Look at your posts and you will see you are every bit as intransigent as you are accusing anyone else of being. Instead of getting your knickers in a knot, how about you explain how to get around the sends problem that Track Folders don't solve without adding any more complexity anywhere else? You see, that is what I am trying to avoid. I don't care how these issues get solved, as long as it doesn't detract from the way I use Orion now. That's why I think the Sub-Mixer is such an good solution - nothing needs to change in the Mixer or Master Section, so the impact on those of us who have no problems with the way Orion works now is zero. You suggest that those sorts of concerns should not hold back Orion's development, and you are right. However, just as important is that those users shouldn't be disadvantaged unless it is absolutely necessary. i.e. The needs of one set of users should not take priority over the needs of any other if a solution can be found that works for everyone. OK, my Sub-Mixer idea may not be the ultimate, perfect solution but it is a lot closer than anything else that has been put forward. It solves everyone's problems without affecting any current features or workflows. How you integrate it into your workflow is completely up to you, it presents as a complete solution with tons of flexibility and uses beyond the scope of just fixing those specific problems. Dell G7 (Hexa-Core i7)|Cubase Pro 10||Analog Keys|Ultranova|MicroMonsta|Uno|Skulpt|Craft Synth 2.0|
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsBones, I did say I like your solution. Then some people (including Rich) said they didn't like the idea of an addition mixer, so I suggested the other option: track-folders.
They are the same for me, as they solve MY problem; not enough busses. For you they are apparently not the same as you want to have more sends. This is where we differ. I don't see a sub-mixer as a solution to have more sends. What you propose is cascading mixerstrips (one in the submixer and one in the main mixer) to have more sends. That is a serious clutch you propose there. If I need more sends for one instrument I need to use a sub-mixer for just ONE additional mixerstrip. For sub-mixing (the name says it all) a sub-mixer is a logical solution. And it can be done with track-folders as well. I'm not for or against one or the other solution as they both cater to my needs.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsI think the sub mixers are another workaround just like the MultiFX container.
And by the number of pages needed to explain the concept of the submixer, I can't see how this complies with Orion's simple and straight-forward signal routing concept. The only arguments I read here against having more busses, inserts and sends are GUI related. There must be a better solution, one that allows more busses for those who need it, but doesn't waste screen space for those who don't use it. Last edited by T-Breaks on Sat May 15, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends3 mixer templates, with an option in one of the menus to select the default template.
The fixed archetecture would keep the original feel of Orion, people wanting more busses/sends/inserts will have them, and those that don't want them won't. Orion stays the same, or expands a bit. Last edited by Icaro on Sat May 15, 2010 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsFor more sends and/or busses I would suggest something completely different:
1. Drop the fixed sends- and busses configuration, including the fixed strips in the master section 2. Get rid of the send-knobs on the mixer-strips (read on before you start screaming ) 3. Make the inserts-system so that we can have unlimited inserts (or maybe just 'many') 4. Make a native insert-fx that is a simple send-item with one send-level knob and a 'buss selector' 5. Make the buss- and send-section same as the main-mixer so we can add as much or little busses we need in a project 6. The buss-selector on the send-insert thingy shows the available (created) busses For backward compatibility put a simple switch in the projectfile that shows a new-style or old-style project (if it's absent, go into backward compatibility mode). Then for old projects simply create the 'old' configuration with the 'new' setup. For the busses only sends need to be created if a buss-switch on a mixer-strip is set to route to a buss. With this solution we don't need sub-mixers or track-folders, we get unlimited (or just many) sends AND unlimited busses. It also let you define where in your signal-chain the send is happening, simply by the order of FX and send-inserts. You can set a send/buss pre-FX, post-FX or somewhere IN your FX-chain. It would bring a lot of (new) power to Orion.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsBut it's so much on top of Bone's simple idea. Which I'd just like to see usable and friendly firstly. It might be a 'dead fish' like MultiFX for many, it might turbo charge OP right there and then. Aside from suggesting a Mute, Solo or both switch, have a poll if the strips should be horizontal or vertical, and how easy is it to integrate into OP8 or OP9 efficiently. It should end there. If it works, great. If not - retool OP and everything in it. Just don't take the neat Sub Mixer away, or let it be obtainable like the Roland Chorus and the Connect 4 game in OP please.
And it's so ironic that Bone's suggest a simple 'grouping' device, and such divided camps happen. And we wonder why GM and Chrysler and others can't come out with a simple efficient hybrid or electric car. Here's the proof.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsHere we go again
It's a suggestion, I'm not for or against anything... read this: IT'S A SUGGESTION ! So instead of (again) telling me that it's not a good idea because Bones idea is better (for you), give us some real reasons why my suggestion is not a good one. That way we can debate the pros and cons of these suggestions (including Bones's) and come to some consensus (although I think that's nearly impossible here).
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsThe reason Bone's started this thread was to get AWAY from the grandiose over the top out there 'suggestions'. Feel free to continue that thread all you want. I'm here to support Bone's and his idea and focus on that solely. And to consider the 3000+ OP users and myself the benefits and/or complications of such a device. You're not going to create the universe in 6 days here. The mighty Rich isn't going to bless you and knight you here. Rich may refer to the other thread and say 'I like these ideas better than Bone's simple thing'. And we will all have to live with that. But why you insist on being a poison here to detour any type of support or consideration is baffling.
Start your own thread 'Ideas To Make OP's Mixer Better And MORE Complex' and spew all the ideas you got there, and argue with me or whoever that dares challenge them. If you get a crap load of supporters that outweigh this thread - something for Rich to consider. Last edited by Dungeon Studio on Sat May 15, 2010 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsSo when did Rich make you the forum-police...
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsI understand what you're trying to say here DS, but the reason that this thread turned out the way it did, is because people felt that Bones idea doesn't properly address some people's desires for more busses, etc. Even Rich doesn't seem to be too excited about it.
You really should go back, and re-read some of the earlier parts of this thread. Crimson was comming out in support of Bones idea initially. The topic of more busses etc., has been discussed over and over for almost as long as I've been a part of this forum. It seems that lots of people want the mixer to expand. A big reason it doesn't is because there's a huge deal being made about accomodating a couple people's wish for it not too, because the extra ch.s would kill there ability to work with Orion. I don't see that it really would, but they're very convinced about it. I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise..... anymore. That's why I suggested multiple mixer templates. It's very simple. Keep the default the way it is. Add an option in the option menus to be able to select the expanded mixer as a default (If you want). Those who want to stick with the old one lose nothing, and those that want the extra busses, inserts and sends will have them. Last edited by Icaro on Sat May 15, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
It's only a part of it. If I remember right, Rich said on the beta forum that in order to put more effects slots on the mixer, he needs to rewrite the audio engine (don't ask me why, that's just what I understood). I imagine it needs to be done for the busses as well.
It wouldn't need a selection of the default look as it's quite easy to change that via the skins, it would just three versions of it... or as many as you want.
I really have no idea how you imagined all that, or how it's supposed to work. I have an image of Orion in my head, and am trying to apply this here, but it's not working. The way I see it, here's what happens... 1 & 2. Basically, with sends, inserts and busses gone, you're left with EQ, mute and solo buttons, volume slider with VUs, pan knob and channel label. If you intend to abandon the whole concept of how Orion works, that excludes the skinning system (dropping graphical backgrounds in favor of just tinted backgrounds). Could work, but there shouldn't be any expectations of "pretty skins" then. 3. That's the problem. We don't have assets to put unlimited anything on the mixer strip, and if you go the other way... just how much is many? The only thing I can see having the prosperity to evolve into "unlimited" domain would be busses, via the assignable slots on the mixers, and only capable of routing the mixer channel to 3 busses max + master. Send and insert placements would still have fixed number, thus expanding the mixer in size. If you have 5 effects on just one slot, every other slot would expand accordingly, even if they don't have any effects. 4-6. I don't really understand how any of this works. The closest to any solution I got so far regarding the skin is cramming 6 sends, 3 inserts and assignable busses (master + 3) on the mixer strip size of the default Azura skin (previously I thought that wouldn't work, but Rich was right... turned out it's possible), even managed to bring its height to 585px, which is 30 pixels less than the default size. All in all, I think it would require the entire overhaul of Orion, whatever is decided. SoundCloud ::: Facebook
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