Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsModerators: Christophe, Mark Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsThe problem with that is once you put things onto a tab, you can never see it with anything on another tab again, which is unacceptable to me. You will almost certainly be constantly moving between the Sub and main Mixer until you get the balance right, so having both visible at once is highly desirable.
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsUnless there was the ability to dock/undock windows.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsI'm with mattox that it should be optional
Also, from my own perspective, I would not flip between the two; when I'm working on a submix I have always soloed the submix (so everything else is silent) so I can focus on the submix. After I have the submix leveled and processed to my satisfaction I move back to the main mix to level the total submix (on it's 'buss') into the main mix. I never work on both levels of the mix together because that is what I like to prevent in the first place by using a submix. The whole idea of sub-mixing is to break up a complex mix into smaller parts that you can work on in detail. It's not to have more mixer channels open at the same time, it's to have LESS mixer channels open at the same time Last edited by crimsonwarlock on Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
This was exactly what I was trying to say. We don't need the substrips to be exactly the same as the mixstrips, but there would need to be at least 4 inserts. I admit in the beginning I said I don't want to see the original instrument's mix strip go when it's inserted, but I do see the point of why it's redundant....... however, I also don't want full-sized mixers competing for space, which could happen. 4 inserts would take care of things IMO. I just use the native eq on the mixer in Orion quite a bit, so it was a bit of a concern. However, I do have other eqs that I like. Last edited by Icaro on Tue May 11, 2010 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsFunny thing though: it's stated here that we could easily just plugin an EQ of our choosing while in another topic it is argued (by Rich him self no less) that pluging in an external EQ instead of having EQ native implemented is a bad choice.
Curious where this is going to lead when Rich gets involved in this discussion
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsI don't think anymore inserts would be needed for lack of EQ in the sub. Either use a EQ insert on a subchannel insert, or a MultiFX with EQ on sub channel insert. I'm not sure, but does OP even have a EQ effect like Steinbergs EQ-1? I think that would be easy enough for Rich to do, just lift out the strip EQ section and make that an effect.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
I never said that using an EQ plugin is a bad choice. I said that having dozens of non-native EQs instantiated across the mixer is not necessarily ideal, and that only native EQs can provide maximum performance and optimal integration into a host. When you find a spot where you need some virtual analog Pultec EQ with a GUI filling the entire screen and eating half your CPU, by all means use it. But it's not a good everyday solution for every mixer strip Admin - Synapse Audio Software
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsNow regarding the actual idea... I may not be that enthusiastic about as it has been around for ages. The first time it came up was when the Legacy Collection appeared. More specifically, the Legacy cell.
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsThe first time I saw it was at Alberts Studio [AC/DC's record company] in about 1993, when they had run out of channels on the big mixer and had employed the same Alesis mixer I was using at the time to get the drums into a mix. So you are right, it is in no way a new idea but it does fit in very well with Orion's virtual studio paradigm and it solves all the issues we are looking to solve.
I don't see any inconsistencies in that at all, as they are two different mixers performing different functions. I completely agree with Rich on the main Mixer EQ but I simply don't see the same need with a Sub-Mixer. Dell G7 (Hexa-Core i7)|Cubase Pro 10||Analog Keys|Ultranova|MicroMonsta|Uno|Skulpt|Craft Synth 2.0|
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsCertainly not new by any means. (Alberts Studio - you lucky sod!) But I think it could be something helpful for those that may need it - me being one of them in future. But again with OP, there's so many ways to skin a cat. My adage has been and may still be to 'bounce' a group of drums or guitars to a stereo WAV and go from there. In most cases it makes for unique song ideas over top - for me anyways. But on occasion there's that 'Gee, I wish I raised or lowered that ukulele or clap just a bit more'. So the Sub Mixer can definitely be a asset there.
I don't think it will be something used by many often with OP. But think it's a handy option to have on board still, and as simplistic as Bones sees it. Not a fancy Alesis desk per se, but just another way to skin the cat with OP. (That's one bald pussy now!)
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
As bones stated, sub-mixers would go very nicely with the whole virtual studio paradigm. But I still think that mix-folders is a much more modern way to do it. Just not sure how much work it would be for you to have collapse-able strips in the main mixer The point is that just about any serious DAW-software has mix-folders nowadays, so maybe it is time Orion embraced that concept as well. Just one level, not the option to nest folders infinitively because that is even to me pretty useless.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/SendsHow do they work and how do you organize those mix folders quickly?
The sub mixer is more like an instrument to me, analogous to the MultiFX modules, a host-in-a-host type solution. Or rather, workaround as most call it, when it comes to using them for lack of insert effects
Then you'll never use the sub mixer either... Admin - Synapse Audio Software
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sendsthanks for the acknowledgment, thats why it felt like been there done that, but in a contorted way. quite simply because you only addressed the problem of grouping logical synths which is not same as having more sends/inserts for each synth. regarding buses atm having sub mixers would solve most of the issues. your idea it has nothing to do with sends/inserts at all, it is only addressing grouping synths. ofcourse i knew all about the idea because its is NOT ORIGINAL and used in other daws too as mixer groups or sub-mixer or what ever you wanna call it. so lets be clear on that. i believe i was, but it seemed the recipient was incapable of handling any. here are some more observations, btw i haven't had time to read thru all the of it, so you should make the updates if any on the front page in order to avoid wasting time thru most of it which must be some crazy logic - the sub mixer must be exactly like the mixer strip and not like a drum-rack-dustbin or that ugly thing you illustrated on the pic - Any deviation from that will disrupt orions workflow and make it incompatable to how we have been using orion for over a decade. You want to add sub-mixes fine, then make it look exactly like a mixer and not drum rack. IMO such solutions presented are very crude and will only act as speed breakers from the way orion works and spoil the reputation of Orion. - the synth must be connected to the mixer and must be visible as a mixer strip all times. you cant have one synth in the main mixer and another in the drum-bin. both methods of access must be uniform. the mixer access has always is horizontal to access synths across, but your drum-rack-bin now uses vertical which is the exact opposite. and as you stated since you dont use more than 10 synths, it is only natural that drum-rack style is really horrible - the access method should be uniform like the mixer. the UI component placement should be as similar as possible to enable smooth transition from main mixer to sub mixer. any other way IMO would be a PITA to work with. Last edited by suneel on Wed May 12, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
The big mixer example surely must be seen as a workaround, rather than a solution. I can see some merit in this when realized as an instrument and performance tool, but this will create all sorts of new problems, as it would become more of a sub-host rather than a sub-mixer. As some VST instruments already tend towards that direction, it means yet another layer that just slows down the workflow. If you want to have a WASP bass playing within C1-B3 and an arpeggiated lead from C3 to C9 for the upper part of the keyboard, or maybe both distributed across two keyboards, all this can be done in Orion 8 most easily with the 1-click-templates. On the other hand, if it's really just a sub-mixer, it means yet another window that has to be managed somehow and arranged on your screen. And reading through the thread, there's not even a consensus of how that window should precisely look like. Admin - Synapse Audio Software
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Idea to Add Complexity Without More Busses/Inserts/Sends
It's quite simple from a users perspective: you add a track-folder to the mixer that can hold other tracks inside it. You can expand the track-folder to see the channels inside it and work on them, and collapse it to see only the folder-track. All tracks inside the folder are full mixer-strips. You add mixer-channels right of the mix-folder channel, you mark the end of the folder-group by marking the last included mixer-channel as 'last in that group'. All channels inside a track-folder buss into the track-folder channel that holds them. (note: that is the default behavior, in Reaper for example you can complete rewire the routing as needed, but that is not the issue here). Sonar: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov04/i ... rack.l.jpg Reaper (see how the folders are open in the track-view on top but collapsed in the mixer below): http://stash.reaper.fm/4000/Unempty-Kontra_Mixer.png Podium (I don't like this implementation, ugly as hell): http://rekkerd.org/img/201001/zynewave_podium.jpg
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