Modwheel loses automation after preset change [Solved]

[ccpurno]

Hi,
I found an issue with a Modwheel automation track in combination with the latest version of Dune (3.6).
It happens in FL Studio 21.2.1 (that is as far I can go back with the .flp file) but also in the latest FL 21.2.2 RC5.
Did not test other versions of Dune or other plugins.

Issue:
Modwheel follows automation track, but as soon as I change preset in Dune, the Modwheel loses its automation.
Strange workaround from 1:11 in my video --> when I click the automation track, the Modwheel position is updated to the current automation track position

See video in attached zip file.

Video.zip

Wonder if others can reproduce / recognize this issue.

Cheers
DJP

[Marcin]

Indeed, there is something weird happening to Mod Wheel visual in the FL Studio after program change. Fortunately all other controls work well. We will try to find the issue and fix it as soon as possible. We will let know here once if fixed.

[ccpurno]

Thnx for picking this up.
But please note its not only a visual glitch, the automation actually is not happening anymore after preset change (can be heard in the video I attached)

Cheers
CCP

[Marcin]

Could you please check this with other plugins?

We checked again more thoroughly and it may work like this in FLS. After a preset change the plugin sends all parameters (or those controls which differ with the actual state) to the host, and the host disables the automation (similar behaviour if you click on the control during automation - it stops). Then it is required to enable automation again.

[Teksonik]

For the record, FL Studio struggles with data such as Mod Wheel, Aftertouch, and Pitch Bend. It handles them in a way unlike any other DAW I've owned or tried. For example if you want to copy a performance to another instrument, it will copy note on/off and velocity data but not MW,AT, or PB data. The steps needed to manually copy that data are quite frankly silly and it's the main reason why I've been looking at other DAWs like Waveform and Bitwig.

Anyway I'll run the test when I boot the studio. I use the MW on my midi controller when recording a performance and not hand drawn automation so that may yield different results. The MW data ends up in the pattern rather than an automation lane in the playlist.

EDIT: OK I've run the test and I can reproduce the issue here but only with drawn automation clips. Automation recorded from my midi controller does not seem to have the same issue:

FL 120723-2.png

So when using an automation clip if I change presets while the project is playing then automation stops working unless I double click on the Stop button. Then everything resets so I think Marcin is right in his assessment. I'm going to test other plugins to see if the results are the same.

EDIT 2: Ok I just tried in Sylenth 1 and Spire (simply because they have on-GUI mod wheels that can be observed as they move along with the automation) and the issue does not occur. Even when changing presets the MW keeps moving along with the automation clip so I'm not sure what's going on...

Here's a test project:

[Marcin]

Even when changing presets the MW keeps moving along with the automation clip so I'm not sure what's going on

How about other controls in Sylenth 1 and Spire (i.e. cutoff etc.)? Do they stop during program change? Also do you check vst2 or vst3? To me in FL, for instance, the issue does not occur all the time. Sometimes controls stop, sometimes they don't. In DUNE 3.6 and other plugins. Please try to automate 5-8 parameters and observe how it behaves, in DUNE 3.6 and/or Spire etc. So kind of odd thing (i.e. in DUNE 3.6 sometimes MW does not stop working, usually it does, but not always, it depends how differ MW's value in the changed preset).

[Teksonik]

I just tried cutoff in Spire and it works. I also tried cutoff in DUNE 3 and it works. However the Modwheel does not work in the same patch. The cutoff knob keeps moving while the modwheel stops on program change.

[Richard]

Anyway I'll run the test when I boot the studio. I use the MW on my midi controller when recording a performance and not hand drawn automation so that may yield different results. The MW data ends up in the pattern rather than an automation lane in the playlist.

EDIT: OK I've run the test and I can reproduce the issue here but only with drawn automation clips. Automation recorded from my midi controller does not seem to have the same issue:

This.

Modwheel is MIDI CC 01 and I'd recommend to record as such, either by using an external MIDI keyboard or by picking the proper controller manually in FLS. This is also how modwheel automation is performed in most DAWs, at least by default. Recording CC1 guarantees that changing patches or even the entire instrument in a track will not give any issues.

For now I'm marking this thread as solved.

[ccpurno]

Hi Rich, thank you and your Synapse colleagues for investing time into this issue.
However, I am afraid this issue is not resolved.

See attached .FLP, made with FL Studio 21.2.2 RC5 (but also happens in older FL Studio versions)

Dune_FL_Issue.zip

In this FLP file:
- Sylenth1 MOD Wheel automates properly, also after preset change.
- Dune 3 looses MOD Wheel automation after preset change. (also picks up the current automation clip value when clicking on the automation clip)

Note: I created the 2 automation tracks by moving the mod wheel with my mouse and then: tools --> last tweaked --> create automation clip

VST versions:

VST_Versions.png

Thnx,
DJP

[Kriminal]

I wasn't aware the MW on the gui sent midi cc...

[Richard]

Note: I created the 2 automation tracks by moving the mod wheel with my mouse and then: tools --> last tweaked --> create automation clip

This will automate the VST parameter, not create an actual MIDI CC modwheel automation. You can see this by replacing DUNE 3 with another instrument, then the automation will have no effect. If you record actual mod wheel automation, it will stick no matter what instrument you use on that track.

Also note with your project and the current official FLS build, the automation does work here after a preset change, simply by playing the clip again.

[ccpurno]

Ok, thnx.
Confirmed that pressing STOP and then PLAY will re-enable automation, also in the latest RC5 of FL Studio 21.2.2.
But that does not really corroborate the VST parameter vs midi CC arguments right?

Just curious.

How come that Sylenth is not affected by this issue? (while Dune is vastly superior in all other areas)

Many FL Studio users, use the "last tweaked" function to make automation clips.

DJP

[Marcin]

How come that Sylenth is not affected by this issue?

It looks simply it is because Sylenth does not send MW's values after program change to the FL back (so there is no affect like "control clicked"). DUNE 3 does (to preserve host or external gear in sync).

[ccpurno]

Thanks for the update.
See this thread for the conclusion of the FL Studio team
https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=319702

Cheers
DJP

[Teksonik]

- FL Studio is not to blame, because it follows the VST specs and follows common good DAW coding practices.

"Good coding practices"......

In this particular case it might be DUNE 3 at fault but 99% of the time when the issue is dealing with MIDI it is FL Studio's fault. It's the reason why I've started using Traction's Waveform and to a lesser degree Bitwig. The way they properly handle MIDI like Mod Wheel, Aftertouch, and Pitch Bend is like a breath of fresh air compared to FL Studio and I say that as someone who has used FL since version 3.

The problem with Image-Line support these days is that no matter what the issue is they take the stance that the plugin is always at fault and that's simply not always the case. Many times plugins only have issues in FL and none of the other DAWs I use (Hive 2 being a perfect example with a crash level bug that only happens in FL Studio due to FL's "fix sized buffer" issue). Another developer has had to implement an "FL Fix" in at least one of their plugins and so on....

FL 122323.png

(hoping saif.sameer from IL support reads this since you gave a link to this thread).