sampler improvement? also some ableton-ish scrolling ability

[illimex]

I really love Orions sampler. It is one of my favorite instruments. I used to use Orion exclusively but now, after spending a few months out, I've also gotten to know Ableton Live and although I can attest to some of the Ableton hype being true, there are still things in Orion I find simpler and more efficient. Hence, while I now produce in Ableton, Orion is always rewired into it and I find myself using elements of Orion in all of my new productions, and the sampler is the main reason.

While I am aware that the sampler automatically assigns each slice to a key, one improvement that I think would be great in sampler is the ability to open the waveform view (the portion of sampler where you can adjust slices and whatnot) and actually right click on one of the sliced sections and have and option to replace that slice with another sample from within a browsable menu. In Ableton, you have a sampler that is similar to the one in Orion, and the option to do this is possible, but time consuming.

I prefer to work in the piano roll, although I own an MAudio Oxygen 49 and can play a little, I learned on the piano roll from an earlier program called Petzolds Midi Drum Machine from a long time ago and so I am more visually inclined in pattern creation. Maybe if I were a better keyboardist I would think differently, but that is for another time. One thing I hate about ableton is that you can insert a Midi track, select a VSTi and place it directly into the Midi section and viola, just like Orion, I am able to start tinkering away. Unfortunately for Ableton (not because its detrimental, but just because of how I like to work), in order for me to use the piano roll I have to press play, then press record, then press stop, then double click on the newly recorded Midi section, adjust the length of it, and then press the loop key and from there I can tinker in their piano roll. Of course, this whole process is much simpler with the step sequencing menu directly above the Instrument, where you load an instrument, press A1, and then press play while dicking around with the piano roll. I love that simplicity which is why I still love Orion. One thing I hate about the piano roll though, is that in order to resize it you have to press the plus and minus keys in the lower corner. In Ableton, in order to resize a section in that manner you simply click in a certain area above your pattern, hold down the mouse key and move it up or down to resize it. This is able to be done on both sides of the piano roll so you can adjust the height and the length according to your preference. If Orion were to introduce say, in place of the the plus or minus keys, simply a little grey box or something that you could click on, hold down the mouse button and do as in Ableton, I believe it would bring the user a more fluid working environment, and thus, less time pushing buttons and more time to be creative.

Its very interesting the way Orion rewires into Ableton. I personally own an Echo Mia Midi sound card, and there are 8 virtual outs (1/2 left and right, 3/4 left and right respectively, and so on so really its only 4 but you get my drift) this means that if I rewire Orion into Ableton and assign each of my tracks to a different bus (for those of you who don't know, the bus assignments in Orion are on the bottom of each channel strip labeled M 1 2 3 and 4) that when I make a new audio track in Ableton, I can select which Busses from Orion, based on my sound cards capabilities, to route to that new audio track in Ableton. Now, people often get confused as to what the hell people are talking about when they refer to the routing capabilities in Ableton, and so this is just a small example of what they are talking about. So, for instance, say I create a sequence in Orion and I route it from the mixer to master bus 1. When I then open ableton, I can tell the audio track I've made to only recieve audio from that buss. This is great for recording material made in Orion, because I can make several sequences in Orion, route them to seperate busses, and then record them to seperate audio tracks in Ableton just like you do when recording in a professional studio, only, without the hassle of a million cables and microphones and inputs and outputs and what have you. I would very much like to figure out a way to record from each track seperately to channels in Ableton, instead of having to use the busses, because the default output for each track is the master channel, and this isn't very convenient if you want to record from eight tracks at a time, because there are only four busses, and having to record one section through a bus, and then record another section through the same bus afterwards so they can each have their own audio track in Ableton, it gets to be a pain in the ass. I'm not sure if this is a rewire issue, an Ableton issue, or an Orion issue, but I have multi outs enabled and am still only able to record from the busses or the master section instead of from each track individually. I just wanted to point this out on the forum because if it is an Orion issue, I think it would be of great benefit to be able to route each channel strip individually to Ableton instead of through the busses. However, if it is not an issue with Orion, but instead with my hardware or something else, then simple ignore this or please, enlighten me!

Anyways, I hope these are good suggestions and maybe this provides some insight into how Ableton and Orion work together. I love both programs, unfortunately for all you Orion purists, and I plan to continue using them together for a long time because to me, its the perfect mix of professional features and ease of use. I work with Orion and have for years now. I am completely attached to it and thank you for creating it. I work with many artists all over the spectrum and would someday like to say, like DeadMau5 does for Ableton, that I am a professional and successful artist and it is because of Orion. The program deserves more respect and more exposure, because I even remember being excited seeing a small tutorial in Computer Music Magazine for Orion a few years back, only to find that now they focus exclusively on FLStudio, Ableton, Cubase and the like. Orion deserves its place. I'm hoping my suggestions will facilitate maybe getting it to where it belongs...at the forefront of music production.

Best Regards

Joseph

[HYPNAGOGIA]

Goddamn, that's long

One thing I hate about the piano roll though, is that in order to resize it you have to press the plus and minus keys in the lower corner. In Ableton, in order to resize a section in that manner you simply click in a certain area above your pattern, hold down the mouse key and move it up or down to resize it. This is able to be done on both sides of the piano roll so you can adjust the height and the length according to your preference. If Orion were to introduce say, in place of the the plus or minus keys, simply a little grey box or something that you could click on, hold down the mouse button and do as in Ableton, I believe it would bring the user a more fluid working environment, and thus, less time pushing buttons and more time to be creative.

There's a CTRL+ MouseWheel combo that can do that, works horizontally, though don't really see any purpose to zoom in vertically on the notes all the time. But horizontally works like a charm.
Rich put a Navigator Bar on the playlist, not sure, might find its way into the Piano Roll too - or something like it.

I'm not sure if this is a rewire issue, an Ableton issue, or an Orion issue, but I have multi outs enabled and am still only able to record from the busses or the master section instead of from each track individually. I just wanted to point this out on the forum because if it is an Orion issue, I think it would be of great benefit to be able to route each channel strip individually to Ableton instead of through the busses.

I think that's on the Orion's side. Can't say for sure, since I don't really know how Ableton handles that (you would have to ask them that), but Orion follows a specific path that doesn't allow for mixer channels to be routed directly to the outputs.
If you look in the manual, specifically the Mixer and Master sections of it, you'll find this:

MixerChannel: Generator -> EQ -> Insert #1 -> Insert #2 -> Gain/Panning (if Gain is linked to channel volume -> Sends) -> Output.
The manual also says:

Note that Output on this chart, is not necessarily the Master channel - it can also be any, or several, of the Subgroups

Now, looking at the Master section graph, you'll see:
- Sends 1-4 -> Return 1-4 (+Return Insert effects + EQ + Panning/Gain) -> |
- Mixer Output -> Bus 1-4 -> |
And then it joins those two into | -> Master

The multi-out option only allows you to turn subgroups (buses) into individual outputs alongside the master output.

[illimex]

Okay, i see how the ctrl-mouswheel thing works. maybe im just lazy but i still like abletons better...im thinking less buttons less clicking less to remember = more actual working on music.

I'll go back and look at the exact mixer configurations in relation to how they work with Ableton while rewired to Orion and come back with exactly how it works output-wise. I'll also check the manual on the Mixer section as well as you recommended and qouted.

Now for that Sampler..lol

[Shadx]

Illimex, in Live you don't have to press record in a midi track to get the piano roll. All you have to do is double click an empty cell and it creates a midi clip. There's also a keyboard shortcut for it.

Orions Rewire has always been different than the the other DAW's (Where most allow up to 32 normal stereo channels iirc). As a Master I find it pointless because of the way the channels are set up (1 Slave channel = 2 Orion channels which means you have to pan one channel left and the other right, and then if you want to add fx....oy)

Slaving Orion into Live on the other hand has always worked well for me (even if I can't record all channels separately because of ORewires limited routing) and unfortunately it's been disabled in the beta; apparently everyone else thinks it's too buggy, bad workflow...hasn't been like that for me.
I even tried Jackaudio for windows to try and overcome this but there's no syncing going on.

Like Hyp said though, a Nav Bar (like Live's) has been added and is kinda nifty; fortunately doesn't take up much space.

I wish you didn't mention Deadmouse.

[illimex]

Shadx thanks for the reply and the tip on Ableton. I don't know what it is about Ableton, be it the audio engine or whatever but for some reason everything I've made in it just comes out smoother then when I was working with Orion, but if you prefer to do the opposite of me, rewiring Ableton in Orion, then I might give that a go as well to see if I get some good results. I don't so much mind the fact that Orion is limited in its outputs to Ableton as I was just making a suggestion. I really do think making music for us Home Studio Musicians should be as easy as it is for a guitarist to pick up his instrument and play. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the time or money to learn every instrument, buy pro tools, and sit at home in our own recording studios jamming along with our guitar to the drum pattern we recorded earlier....Hence my suggestions. I don't particularly like Deadmau5, it was just a reference to an article I'd read where he mentioned his DAW being primarily Ableton, and I was just saying, I would like to see a bigger or more successful artist of any genre saying the same about Orion.

So this is really great. I've learned some things (thanks guys) but I still would like to know if Richard could address that sampler request. My request would be that you could right click on a slice, select an option to replace the slice with another sample, a browser window would pop open and bam, you just replaced a "beep" from your cut-up Vengeance Minimal House Bassline Selection with a "bzzzt!" from a selection of short one shot samples you've acquired or made over the years. I'm sure that even making an algorithm to match the size and length of the imported sample to the original slice couldn't be that difficult, because Ableton seems to putter along just fine with its warping abilities, which I wouldn't see as being much different. Hell, you could even just import a whole loop too and it would take over the length of the discarded slice and then re-chop up the whole damn thing on the fly and then pick and choose or whatever. Yes, I know this could all be done by combining a bunch of samples in say, wavelab, then importing them into sampler, and then doing whatnot, but I hate jumping between programs all the time. I may have dual monitors, but my patience is only works half the time and frustration the other half. I think it would also be great if you could load a sampler, load a sample, slice it up, and then actually replace slices from other slices from sampler osp files. I mean hell, there's already a waveform view in the sampler, so adding an osp preview viewer for selecting the slices you want couldn't be that difficult, could it?

[Richard]

I really do think making music for us Home Studio Musicians should be as easy as it is for a guitarist to pick up his instrument and play.

It is not that easy to just pick up a guitar and play...I wish it were

I see what you mean of course, but I don't think sequencers will ever be trivial to use. Orion [in pattern mode] is as simple as it gets, I've never seen anything simplier. Everyone I've ever shown it to was able to use it within minutes. Once you get to the linear arranging part though, it always gets messy, whatever host you choose.

Back to your request, the Slicer needs an update for sure, when it's coming I cannot predict right now though.

[bones]

What you have to remember about the slicer is that it is non-destructive. i.e. It is not really slicing up your audio, it just plays different parts of the same file. For that reason, I imagine it would be trickier than you might think to swap things around.

The way you describe Live's zooming seems very unintuitive to me. Using the scroll wheel makes much more sense and has already been improved in the V8 beta, so I think it will address your needs.

The thing that I don't get though, is how it can possibly be better to use ReWire than to put up with the limitations of any chosen host. It must complicate matters far more than finding the odd workaround here and there. If your mixes are coming out different in one host than another, I think that is a real cause for concern. It probably means one of them is doing something to your audio that you have no control over, which is never a good thing.

[illimex]

Richard, first of all, thank you for replying. I am definitely excited to see what you do to the sampler in the future. In my opinion it is one of the most versatile tools that Orion has, very easy to use and with great results almost instantly. I remember doing a remix for State Shirt on a song called "Up, Up, Up, Up" (its available on the state shirt website under the remixes section if you're curious) and I used sampler to chop up an old sitar sequence and re-arranged it so that it sounded like a funk guitar instead...nothing like the original. There are other samplers out there, and of course, Ableton has it's own but I much prefer Orions, which I hope will answer at least one of bones' questions about why you would rewire one host into another. You are definitely correct in the fact that Orion is by far one of the easiest DAWs to work with, and yes, particularly in pattern mode (although song mode is still a breeze), which is why I continue using it for a lot of my tasks as opposed to using Ableton exclusively. For me, the biggest attractions with Ableton is the warping engine, the ease of automation and a few other things related to the GUI and routing options. The biggest downfalls of Ableton also happen to be the things I love about Orion, which is why this combination makes it a perfect music producing solution for me.

Bones, rewiring one application into another is a hassle for some DAWs, but not for Ableton. In Ableton I can create an Audio track, easily tell that track to recieve from Orion, and then also tell it from which busses to recieve the audio. It's fast and easy. Now Ableton does not have a pattern mode or song mode like Orion does, which is why this is so good. In Ableton, I have to create a Midi track, insert a VST instrument, then go to the arrangement view and create a small section for the piano roll so I can insert my notes. But then I have to select the loop option, select the space that my new empty midi clip contains, and then press play and start putting my notes in. So you see, in Orion I simply select a VSTi, click on A1, and then I can just start plugging notes in right away. Just an example of why I rewire Orion into Ableton. So anyway, the limitations of my host are easier to address by rewiring then by dealing with Abletons Midi issue. Abletons strong points have always centered around the automation, audio, and the ability to tempo warp any sample to that of your song, not Midi functionality, which has gotten better, but is still no where as easy to use as in Orion. One of the leverages it has over Orion for me is automation, because all the controls and interfacing are right there, instead of in a seperate portion of the application.

To address your comment in reference to the audio engine, I wondered about that myself. Is there something under the hood in Ableton that makes it sound better? Maybe they smacked a BBE on the master before the output or something? I'm not sure what it is, but what I do know is that each DAW handles audio differently, and I'm pretty sure that it depends on the programming or the programming language. (I'm no expert, but I've even seen this in visual programs such as The Gimp and Paint Shop Pro where quality of the output seems "different" somehow, or like in Lightwave 3D and 3D Studio Max so that even when creating an identical 3D object, texturing it, setting the light sources and everything else in similar ways, each program still produces a rendering that looks different. Not that either of them look bad, just that they do not look identical....)

Also, the navigation bars in Ableton are very easy to use and very intuitive. Another difference between Ableton and Orion is in the behaviour of the piano rolls. In Ableton a double click fills the note space, then you drag it to size, and a double click will remove it as well. This is because if you single click and hold the mouse button down, you automatically get the selection tool which is very handy for grabbing several notes on the roll and moving them around. In Orion, the note selection tool is a button up in the corner. I single left click gives you the note, a single right click takes it away.

[bones]

Bones, rewiring one application into another is a hassle for some DAWs, but not for Ableton.

I wasn't talking about the host, it is the way it completely butchers your workflow. It sort of adds some of the hassles of recording live parts to the digital side of the process.

Just an example of why I rewire Orion into Ableton.

Not really, it was more an illustration of why you shouldn't bother with Live. If you are going to do all your sequencing in Orion anyway, what's the point of using Live at all? OK, it has better automation but it doesn't reach back through ReWire and automate your Wasp 5s, does it? All you seem to be doing is swapping one set of hassles for another. Orion's automation may be in a separate window but you are using automation that is in a separate application! How is that better? My solution to Orion's poor automation tools is to use more modulation, which is actually way easier than anything else. Even Rich seems to have only worked that out recently (during Dune beta testing).

In Orion, the note selection tool is a button up in the corner. I single left click gives you the note, a single right click takes it away.

... and CTRL+Click turns it into the selection tool without you having to do anything. It is perfect. EnergyXT does the double-click thing and it is the stupidest way to enter notes I have ever encountered and the thing that stopped me dead when I started playing with it.

[Shadx]

Rewiring Orion into Live is not a hassle at all, and it doesn't butcher the workflow.
All I use it for is simply streaming O's audio into ableton to record it.
This is better workflow actually because I can record additions and changes as I go along.
I've got plenty of custom drumracks and samplers along with the stock synths and effects in O that I want to keep using but I want do more with them in Live.

Why don't I just do everything beforehand in Orion before bringing it into Live, might you ask?
Because I'd prefer to start the framework or idea in O and work on it with both as I go along.
At some early point I'm going to want to bring in some audio that I can do things with in Live that Orion can't do,
but at any stage, I don't want to leave Orion out of it.
(Maybe instead of P-Heads naming it "Master/Slave" they should've called it "Parent/Child")
IT"S NOT A PITA OR HASSLE AT ALL. Maybe with other hosts but not with these 2.
I've never had sync problems or crashing.
And like I said, it's simply to stream the audio into Live to record it in sync.
For now with the beta I'll just have to render first, but that sucks for workflow.
Plus the way Live handles files speeds up workflow instead of having to render O's files.
Live is just going to re-handle them anyway; it's extra steps for nothing.

Wasn't leaving Slave out of the beta to not deal with support issues? Aren't there only 2 people with this issue, yet neither of us are having rewire issues? Can we not find out how if bringing back Slave into the beta is going to cause problems? It is a beta....

As far as if sound quality is different between the 2, I don't hear differences. There's plenty of people who will say Live's audio sounds worse. I don't buy into it. Even if programming brings a different "taste" to the host, the only differences I hear are in the effects. Not the master. Maybe because of volume issues or summing....but if I render out a song with separate tracks from O and bring them into Live and listen to them dry I don't hear a difference. To me, it's placebo.

I can understand those with experience that have rewired other hosts together or just in theory using 2 apps at the same time to sync together can be a pita but from my experience it hasn't been that way with O and Live.
It's more of a workflow killer to NOT be able to use them together.

[Richard]

To address your comment in reference to the audio engine, I wondered about that myself. Is there something under the hood in Ableton that makes it sound better? Maybe they smacked a BBE on the master before the output or something? I'm not sure what it is, but what I do know is that each DAW handles audio differently, and I'm pretty sure that it depends on the programming or the programming language. (I'm no expert, but I've even seen this in visual programs such as The Gimp and Paint Shop Pro where quality of the output seems "different" somehow, or like in Lightwave 3D and 3D Studio Max so that even when creating an identical 3D object, texturing it, setting the light sources and everything else in similar ways, each program still produces a rendering that looks different. Not that either of them look bad, just that they do not look identical....)

Summing the audio streams means just adding them, both in hard- and software, so there's no magic here. The effects you use can of course make a huge difference, however. This is why Orion 8 comes with vastly improved effects compared to the current ones.

[illimex]

Shadx, thank you for addressing that for me (bones questions). Primarily I run a dry audio stream into (no effects on the channel) Ableton from Orion, then I use Abletons effects on the stream, because they are great out of the box, and the automation is incredibly easy to work with.

Richard, thanks again for clarifying. Perhaps my issues with Orion were not with the outputs, but instead the effects? I'm not sure, maybe the compression is too harsh with the built-ins? I don't know, but it does rather worry me a little about bones' comment about something happening in Ableton before the output that I have no control over. I was wondering if perhaps, like when using Wavelab, they give you options for dithering, bit resolution, and all that, and maybe the team at Ableton has some of these things going on the Master without the users knowledge? It just seems that everything I made in Orion sounded much harsher then the things I've made in Ableton, however, it could also just be that my sound choices and producing skills are getting better (or worse, opinions do differ, lol.)

I guess I you could see for yourself here. All were made with Ableton and Orion rewired into it. (all except for the first track, which I made exclusively in Orion...so you can be the judge...these are all works in progress btw)

http://www.soundcloud.com/illi

[mattox]

Some top quality songs there illimex!

[Shadx]

I've bitched about Rewire enough, though. I can live without it; just seems odd to take it out.

Just listened to All of Mankind, Illimex; good stuff!