Wishlist 2012 Discussion (Sticky)

[Teksonik]

Without the proper Software your computer setup can make no more music than a brick. a DAW is a combination of hardware designed to record and playback sound and the software designed to record, manipulate, playback and (optionally)generate sound...

Yes, that's what I said.

No you said..........

(a DAW is a computer set-up, not the software running on it)

As I said obviously a DAW is both Software and the Hardware to run it on......but whatever.......

[Teksonik]

the idea of the thread was actually an experiment, to see if users can actually give a good account for the stuff they 'wish' for, and as i suspected, most cannot

see a wish for "piano roll" ....WTF does that mean?

asking for stuff without explaining why you want it just shows how much thought goes into the wishes....

But then Mark posted this:

If you want to explain why you wish something then post the wish in that thread and explain why here.

We've got people going in two different directions. Should they explain their feature requests in the Wish List thread as you first suggested or here as Mark later suggested?
It's sending mixed messages so you can't place all the blame on those making requests......and in the end I'm not sure that anyone who's in a position to actually make a change is even paying attention to either thread........

[Mark]

the idea of the thread was actually an experiment, to see if users can actually give a good account for the stuff they 'wish' for, and as i suspected, most cannot

see a wish for "piano roll" ....WTF does that mean?

asking for stuff without explaining why you want it just shows how much thought goes into the wishes....

But then Mark posted this:

If you want to explain why you wish something then post the wish in that thread and explain why here.

We've got people going in two different directions. Should they explain their feature requests in the Wish List thread as you first suggested or here as Mark later suggested?
It's sending mixed messages so you can't place all the blame on those making requests......and in the end I'm not sure that anyone who's in a position to actually make a change is even paying attention to either thread........

The quote that you are using from me is consistent in that it was made in this thread. The discussion thread. There are no mixed messages. And it wasn't suggested late on. It was suggested pretty much immediately.

Dave might have started the thread as an experiment. I wasn't to know that. I was just operating as a moderator and a) thinking about how much work it was going to be for me to tidy the thread up when the thread got messy and b) how much work it will be for Richard to go through all of the requests (if he actually does so). The second point was also based on my feeling that all requests should get an equal sighting from Richard rather than being mired in the usual circular arguments that occur with ideas/feature requests (not saying there's anything wrong with that btw) and dilute out the relevant information. So, it seemed obvious to me that we should have requests in one thread and discussion of those in another.

[Mark]

So we have three pages of wishes and about half-a-dozen posts here actually discussing them. I assume that means no-one gives a toss about any of the ideas in the wishlist? Reading through that thread, that is certainly how I'd rate most of them. Seriously, this idea of separating the topics for discussion from the discussion itself is a massive failure. What might work much better is one thread per wish, maybe in a new forum section - "Wishlist 2012" or something.

You're welcome to start a singular wish thread whenever you want to. Oh, wait a minute, you already did, didn't you? Global patterns. Do you really want Richard to waste his time to read through lots of threads each dedicated to singular wishes along the line of the global patterns thread?

The titles of the two threads are very clear though. And might I point out that a wishlist technically is a list of wishes, which is what we have (conveniently labelled Wishlist 2012 wishes only). Plus you get the bonus of being able to discuss it in a clearly labelled discussion thread (conveniently labelled Wishlist 2012 Discussion). Only an idiot could miss that distinction

[Teksonik]

There are no mixed messages..

Quite obviously there are:

(in the Wish List thread) post your wishlist here, say what you would like to see added/changed in Orion, and say why. Give some thought to your wishes and try to explain why they would be a good addition to Orion

If you want to explain why you wish something then post the wish in that thread and explain why here (this discussion thread).

Again are people to post why in the Wish List thread as Krim has suggested or here in the Discussion thread as you suggested a few posts later ? Mixed messages.......

Dave might have started the thread as an experiment. I wasn't to know that. I was just operating as a moderator and a) thinking about how much work it was going to be for me to tidy the thread up when the thread got messy and b) how much work it will be for Richard to go through all of the requests (if he actually does so). The second point was also based on my feeling that all requests should get an equal sighting from Richard rather than being mired in the usual circular arguments that occur with ideas/feature requests (not saying there's anything wrong with that btw) and dilute out the relevant information. So, it seemed obvious to me that we should have requests in one thread and discussion of those in another.

As I've said in our PM discussions it will save Rich no time having to read both threads just to learn What people want and then Why they want it........ People should give a brief explanation of why a feature request makes sense in the Wish List thread and Arguments against requests or further discussions of feature requests obviously belong here......

Ehhh I'm getting the feeling it doesn't matter one way or the other....

[Teksonik]

I think maybe the problem lies with our definitions of "Discussions" and "Explanations"........

[Mark]

Maybe the threads should have been labelled clarification and obfuscation

As I explained to you by PM Tek, I'm not against clarification in the wishes only thread. The idea was to keep that thread pared down (for Richard's benefit), but to have any extraneous information in the discussion thread (for everyone's benefit).

You and bones clearly don't like the idea or think it has failed, but you are both working with two weeks worth of hindsight, which I didn't have when making the decision to separate out the two threads. I was, however, open from the start as to what my intentions were and, again, I wonder what the motive is for complaining two weeks and more after the separation was started.

And yes, Kriminal said one thing in his original post, but it should be clear enough that my following post was a clarification of what I, as a moderator, expected from that thread, i.e., wishes only, and I created a separate topic for those that like to discuss and obfusc, the latter of which, ironically, is what we're doing here

Anyway, we've discussed this enough and there's no going back to one thread this time, so can we leave it there, please?

[Lance]

It's fine as it is. Bones's just upset he can't shout down the guys who made the wishes he doesn't like.

I was just lurking on the PreSonus forum on the other day and there's a similar topic there too called 'request one'. It's one request per user and no discussion allowed, it's exactly for the same purpose like our Wishlist 2012, to create a list of requests/wishes for the developers to get feedback and to cherry-pick from them.

As I see it, our Wishlist 2012 topic isn't about to decide a wish or feature idea is a good or bad thing. It's for the purpose for Rich to get some ideas about the most common wishes (as I see it Automation improvements lead) and/or get some tips in little things. Luckily there are many simple requests for little things. If some of these would be also easy to implement then I can see Rich will consider some from them too, not just from the topic leader wishes which will be not so easy to implement.

Anyway, Bones may perfectly shout down the requests here, he could tell what's his problem with them. So I cannot accept his rant in the inappropriate thread, as he free to do it here! But it seems, Bones is more interested to get a response from those who doesn't even want to argue with him. This is a kind of unsuccessfull trolling behaviour. Excuse me for the bad wording. One of the main motivations of trolling is to get response, to be felt important through this.

Rich is a very intelligent and rational person. I''m sure he could decide on importance of wishes and their quality too. When he will want feedback or help to decide on something he will ask for it and/or make polls about it as he used to do in the beta forum.

He's certainly not interested to go through loads of arguing of forum discussions just to find its 1% useful content. He didn't do that with the Global Pattern topics either.

[Mark]

I'm glad someone agrees

[Teksonik]

You and bones clearly don't like the idea or think it has failed,

No, No you misunderstand. I like the idea of two separate threads. In fact in case you missed it from Page 1 of this thread:

Anyway brilliant idea Mark to make this discussion thread separate and leave the other clean just for suggestions....well done......

I just think that allowing a brief explanation (not discussion) of why a feature request is being made in the Wish List thread makes sense so Rich doesn't have to read What a person wants and then Why they want it in a separate thread. Imagine trying to find all the "Why" posts and match them up with the "What" posts. Defeats the time saving purpose of having two threads.

Obviously further discussions belong here in the Discussion thread (including discussions about the threads). I don't think the original concept has failed at all. I think as Krim intended people should explain why they want a particular feature in the same post as the request itself. Briefly and without obfuscation. Yes we've discussed this enough but no one seems to be talking about anything else so......not a big deal really......keeps the thread on page 1.........

[Teksonik]

Here's a Prime example:

Song event automation definitely needs work, it's the weakest aspect of Orion.

Why? What does he mean "needs work" ? So now Rich would have to go through this thread looking for the one post where Funky would explain why he wants Song Event Automation work and what it means. See the waste of time? A simple brief as possible explanation in the Wish List Post would have been very useful.......

Another example:

And on the subject of the Metronome...Count Down to Playback as well. Really useful for practicing a song or part when playing an instrument.

If I had just said "Countdown to Playback" Rich might have said "Why? Who would need that?" By adding a simple and brief explanation he can now see that it is "Really useful for practicing a song or part when playing an instrument".... without having to search through this entire thread to to find the post where I explain why...........

[Teksonik]

Rich is a very intelligent and rational person. I''m sure he could decide on importance of wishes and their quality too.

No doubt Rich is a highly intelligent person...simply look at his body of work for proof. However no one can possibly know what every user may want and why. If he did there would never be any feature requests...ever......

He can't possibly know the workflow and needs of every user or potential user of Orion. No one could. If you don't play guitar how could you know what those of us who do need or want from Orion? I don't play Saxophone so I couldn't possibly know what a Sax player would need from Orion......and so on.

A simple explanation gives Rich the insight he needs to determine whether or not a feature makes sense for inclusion into Orion.

[Mark]

I totally agree (with both your posts above). I'm sorry if I gave the impression that people should make a statement without an explanation as to why their particular wish is the bees knees or the dogs nads.

I think the misunderstanding here arose from me asking for posters to not relate their life histories with their wish. That's my fault for not being clear. Sorry

Anyway, you will always get some who post "I want X" and expect people to understand how and why, even when specifically stating that one must briefly explain what is important about that wish.

People are free to add a brief explanation by editing their posts if they want. I emphasize brief though

[Lance]

Regarding the Automation wishes, I think we can have an idea already what the 'automation needs work' means in the context. No need to go into to much details, at least for me. These subjects were already discussed and examined in-depth years ago with Rich, both on public and the beta forum. There was even a public poll on the main website and Automation Overhaul won there too AFAIK. The other thing was Pitch Shifting/Time Stretching integration.

In that year in principles users wanted better visual integration and overview of automations. Possibly Automation Tracks with Clips and/or the Event Editor integrated to the Playlist (on/off of course).

Then users wanted more refined editing tools, splines and curves and so.

Then users wanted improved editing of events; copy, paste, duplicate, fill ahead, paste-to-cursor, the general handlings of automation clips of today's DAW.

Also when someone write only 'needs work' that may mean the user would like to leave that up to the developers what improvements they do. So the user wouldn't like to enforce his ideas onto the developer or onto the design concept of Orion, but would like to see some improvements on that area according to the developer's judgement and the concept of the software.

Just my 2c

[Teksonik]

Regarding the Automation wishes, I think we can have an idea already what the 'automation needs work' means in the context.

Better to know than to think. At any rate we wouldn't have been left to speculate on what Funky wanted if a simple explanation was included.....nor would Rich need to speculate.....

No need to go into to much details, at least for me.

You're not the one writing the code. It doesn't matter what you (or I)think it's what Rich thinks that counts just as it doesn't matter what we think the idea behind a request was but what the original poster had in mind. Don't try to interpret what other people want.....

In that year.....

The thread title is Wish List 2012. It doesn't matter what people wanted "in that year"......

Also when someone write only 'needs work' that may mean the user would like to leave that up to the developers what improvements they do.

It's already been left up to the developer.....and apparently he left something out which is why there was a feature request made in the first place....